Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 March 9

= March 9 =

Singular or plural verb?
Which is the correct choice for each sentence? --Theurgist (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) More than one apple is/are red.
 * 2) More than one of the apples  is/are red.
 * 3) One or more apples  is/are red.
 * 4) One or more of the apples  is/are red.


 * Looks to me like "is", "are", either, either. StuRat (talk) 00:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say is/is/are/is, solely based on what sounds natural to me (native British English speaker) 59.108.42.46 (talk) 03:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Mid-American here (urban Iowa), I'd accept only "is" and "are" for the first two. Second two might depend a little on whether "one" or "apples" receives heavier stress (if "one" is stressed, then "is" sounds less grating, especially in the third, where the esses merge), but I'd expect to hear "are" for both and it sounds more correct to me. Lsfreak (talk) 04:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Another two (darn, I should have thought of them the first time): --Theurgist (talk) 11:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) More than one is/are red.
 * 2) One or more is/are red.


 * Either looks good in those two cases. StuRat (talk) 22:33, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Here are links to some discussions. General consensus seems to be "More than one apple is..." and "More than one is..." but "More than one of the apples are..."
 * There's more debate over others. "One or more apples are" and "one or more are" seem theoretically to be preferred - it's customary to agree with the noun nearer the verb.  But this rule isn't uniformly applied, and "one or more is" would also not be unusual - and Google suggests "one or more is" is actually more common than "one or more are".
 * The preceding rules would strongly suggest "One or more of the apples are...", though Google suggests "is" is also very common.
 * Summary: "More than one apple" and "More than one" usually take the singular, but the rest can take either.--Colapeninsula (talk) 11:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

My sense of what's most acceptable is as follows: 1. is, 2. is/are, 3. are, 4. are, 5. is/are, 6. are. In the two cases where I think either is okay, I do think is sounds better. I actually prefer "More than one of the apples is red," contrary to an opinion stated above. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage has articles on one or more and more than one. It says that when one or more governs a verb, which is not that common, the plural seems to be used. (I agree with this.) More than one generally favours the singular, but there is a degree of variation. In some cases, the singular can't even be used easily, as for example in "If there are more than one, they are alphabetized among themselves." (Here the choice of are is forced by the fact that they can't be replaced with it.) 96.46.204.126 (talk) 07:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Carrot
From where did Welsh get the word "moron" for carrot? Is this word similar to other Celtic languages? doktorb wordsdeeds 07:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Gaelic (presumably Irish) appears to be cairéad. Cornish (which is more closely related) is karetysen (Standard Written Form).Alansplodge (talk) 09:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Moron (or anything like it) doesn't appear in the Etymological Glossary of Old Welsh, so it may be a later introduction and probably wouldn't be influenced by other Celtic languages. Alansplodge (talk) 09:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

It might be a borrowing from some Germanic language: compare Swedish morot (other Scandinavians now call it gulrot/gulerod, yellow-root, but I don't know what the Vikings might have called it), German Möhre or Mohrrübe. "Mirrot" is apparently a Scottish name for the carrot. Russian has morkva. This Swedish etymological dictionary traces morot to Indo-European *mrk.--Rallette (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the Welsh word is almost certainly a borrowing from Old English, whose word for "edible root" was more or moru. The term for carrots specifically was wylisc moru (possibly meaning "Welsh root", but also possibly meaning "Gaulish root" since the Germanic ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons used the etymon of wylisc to refer to the Celts and/or Romanized peoples to their west). The English carrot is a borrowing from Old French. Marco polo (talk) 14:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * You are all ruddy marvellous. Thank you :) Or, diolch, indeed doktorb wordsdeeds 16:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

A slight correction: the Russian word for "carrot" is morkov'. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 09:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a tiny further correctionette: morkov would used for a bunch of carrots, or carrots generally; a single carrot would be more likely to be morkovka. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  03:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Stress
Okay, here's a stupid question. If Italian has a rigid rule of stressing the second-last syllable, why do people speaking English with an Italian accent stress the first syllable of "Italy"? After all, that cannot be the second last syllable by any estimates, and in the language itself it pronounced [iˈtaːlja]. Inter change  able | talk to me  22:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have a definite answer, but it does seem that many -y placenames in English are stressed on the antepenultimate syllable (e.g., Germany, Normandy, Brittany). There is some reference to this on John Wells's phonetics blog, but not specifically about placenames. Still, he points out that Kentucky is an exception. Also, are you sure the name for Italy didn't come to us through French? 96.46.204.126 (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Hawaii" is another exception, but that doesn't end in -y, so I'm not sure that it counts. Inter  change  able | talk to me  15:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Because they have heard that English native speakers stress the first syllable of the word Italy, and so they imitate English native speakers as well as they can, and so stress the first syllable of the word Italy when they speak English themselves. I fail to see why you think the stress is wrong -Lgriot (talk) 00:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be the right answer: They're speaking English, so they say it the English way. And it's funny someone would mention Germany, since Germany's name in German is Deutschland, but when native Germans are speaking English, they call their own country "Germany". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact not all Italian words have the stress on the penultimate. A number of words have it on the antepenultimate, or in certain cases it can also be on the last syllable, compare: chiamo ("I call") vs chiamò ("he called"). There are languages where the stressing rules are much more rigid. --Theurgist (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Seeing the other answers, I realize I misunderstood the question. I missed the "with an Italian accent" part. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 09:19, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I told you it was a stupid question. Inter  change  able | talk to me  22:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

"Life's too short" in Latin
Vita est .... brevis? Thanks in advance for your help. --Lgriot (talk) 23:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Nimis or nimium: "Nimis brevis vita [est]." Deor (talk) 02:08, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You might be interested in Ars longa, vita brevis if you aren't already familiar with it. Looie496 (talk) 03:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)