Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 May 11

= May 11 =

Pronunciation of Sans Pareil
How do English-speaking one pronounce the name of the Sans Pareil? sænz Pareil? sæns Pareil? or in the French manner so parei? Of couse, it  might be supposed that the variant sænz Pareil is the most probable but I would like to check it. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 15:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * During my former incarnation as Editor of a (rather obscure and odd) Locomotives and Railways periodical publication (Club Loco Philatelica aka Locomotive Philatelica), I only ever encountered it as the first of your examples. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

As I understood you pronounce the name Sans Pareil as Sans Pareil but never do in the Franch manner. I would like ask you about one thing yet. Which sound in the end of word "Sans" is in the most common use? z or s? Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 18:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "z", as I implied in my first answer. This is strictly Original Research rather than cited, but in my professional dealings on the subject with railway writers and enthusiasts, I never heard the name of the locomotive pronounced otherwise by an English speaker unless they were deliberately using the conventional French pronunciation as a joke. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.211 (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Title added to aid future searching - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My SOED gives two variants for "sans" /sanz, sɑ̃ (z)/ (/a/ is /æ/ there). And in the supplement to the same article it gives /parɛ:j/ for "sans pareil", though I think anglicized /pɑːˈreɪ, pæˈreɪ/ are also acceptable. So two or three possible pronunciations can exist: English-like /ˈsænz pɑːˈreɪ, pæˈreɪ/ and French-like /sɑ̃ parɛj/.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 01:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Title adjusted to aid future searching. In cases like this there can be many variations, one person using a close approximation to the French and another who doesn't know the word is from French at all and gives a letter-by-letter rendering.  The last syllable could be similar to any of ray, rye, rail, rile, or even perhaps real. - Sussexonian (talk) 07:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Sans Pareil would have already been widely known in Britain as the name of a famous warship; see HMS Sans Pareil (1794). The Royal Navy is noted for its idiosyncratic pronunciation of non-native ship's names. Because of the pronunciation of HMS Bellerophon in the same era, she was known as the "Billy Rough'un" or "Billy Ruffian"; "Boney went a-cruisin' / Way-aye-yah! / Aboard the Billy Ruffian / Johnny Franswor!" Alansplodge (talk) 09:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm reminded of nonpareils. It's been decades since I had occasion to use any, but when I was a kid, the packets were always labelled "nonpareils" - except nobody, but nobody, ever called them that.  It was always "hundreds and thousands".  If we did try to say the "proper name", it was usually like non-pa-RELZ.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  09:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

sans-pareilly, I think. nonpareils: for me too. — kwami (talk) 09:35, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I was interesting in the pronunciation of the word combination by English-native speaker who doesn't know the word is from French at all. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 10:17, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Thanks to everyone who pitched in and helped. I think I'v got a complete answer. Well, now I think the right pronunciation of the word combination and the name "Sans Pareil" by English-native speaker is sænz Pareil with sound "z" at the end of the Sans and with sound "l" at the end of the Pareil. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 10:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I concur. However, on another matter you mention, I think very few English-native speakers (at least in Britain) would not know that such words originate in French, even if they had never studied the French language in school (which, to generalize, was usual in the 20th century for most pupils). France has always been Britain's closest neighbor; we were "taken over" by the French-speaking Normans who created many French place-names, whose pronunciations we have anglicized but which are readily recognizable by their spellings; and in more recent centuries British speakers fully educated in French (i.e. most of the upper classes) have introduced many French terms into English which non-French speakers are well aware of. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.211 (talk) 11:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)