Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 May 27

= May 27 =

Discourage as an antonym
I realized recently that, at least in common usage, the English word "encourage" has no true antonym. The closest thing most thesauri mention is either "stifle" or "dissuade". Clearly, neither of these is close enough to being a true antonym -- "Dissuade" implies that the effort is/was successful. "Stifle" does the same, in addition to adding a whole level of something not feeling quite right when treated as the antonym of "encourage".

At least one definition of the word "discourage" (appropriately) does fit the bill, but nowadays that verb is almost never used in the active voice and has become almost exclusively passive -- i.e., it may be that "Julia was discouraged by Tommy" but it would be pretty rare to read "Tommy discouraged Julia", at least in the American English with which I am familiar. This is especially odd given that the parent word "encourage" is still commonly used in both the passive and the active voice. I'm wondering why this is, and why we have no active-voice-friendly antonym of "encourage" that is in common use. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 09:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm British and "discourage" is used in the active voice on a regular basis here.  mg  SH 10:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm American and I agree. "Discourage" seems like a perfectly normal and commonly-used active voice verb to me too.  Not sure where you got this impression. -Elmer Clark (talk) 11:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Me too. In fact, I actively discourage the OP from believing the word is rarely used except passively.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  20:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Cool! I suppose I've somehow managed to avoid most such uses of the word. Mayhap I need to get out more. : ) Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 22:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Non-American software
Hello. Recently I purchased some graphics software from an online dealer at a price far less than I expected. Granted, it was a version several years old, but it works fine. Anyway, I discovered that many of the fonts included with the software have names I am unfamiliar with, such as Sakkal Majalla, Nyala, and Iskoola Pota. They look almost like Western fonts but the names lead me to believe this version of the software was not intended for the U.S. market. (U.S. versions I have used in the past have other fonts instead of these.) Does anyone recognize these fonts? Thank you. → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 11:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Two of them are listed in List of Microsoft Windows fonts it says Nyala is Ethiopic, and Iskoola Pota in Sinhala. Have you tried Google which indicates that Sakkal Majalla is probably arabic. MilborneOne (talk) 11:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, thank you. I guess means this software was intended for an Asian/African market. I will install some of my favorite Western fonts, and everything should be fine. (And who knows, perhaps someday I will have someone ask for a project that requires Iskoola Pota.   → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 13:22, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * If it has both those foreign fonts and American fonts, it sounds like an "international edition". StuRat (talk) 17:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * "American fonts"? Surely you mean Latin alphabet fonts? Roger (talk) 18:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The Latin and Cyrillic alphabet fonts were the ones already installed on my computer.   → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 19:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * American fonts, such as Cherokee, Maya, or Deseret. Or maybe StuRat was thinking of fonts such as Miller, Fairfield and Georgia... V85 (talk) 20:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I meant fonts commonly used in the US (which are also commonly used elsewhere). I called them "American fonts" due to the context of this Q. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Vocal imitation of Hitler
In the English-speaking world, imitations of Hitler are always visual, consisting of the mustache, the swath of black hair, and furious gesticulations. When English-speakers "imitate" Hitler's voice, they just produce a generic angry German accent. But I would assume that German-speakers are familiar enough with Hitler's voice to imitate it more faithfully, the same way English-speakers might imitate FDR or Churchill. Is this true? If so, do Germans ever employ this imitation for satirical purposes? L ANTZY T ALK 15:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a German sketch show called de:Switch reloaded. One of its recurring sketches is "Obersalzburg", a parody of The Office (I guess) with Hitler as the boss. I don't know if the guy playing Hitler is actually attempting to imitate his voice though. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that imitating Hitler in Germany is considered rather poor taste, so it rarely happens (something like how imitating a child-killer in the US for laughs would be considered in poor taste). StuRat (talk) 17:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I see your point and all but I would think that imitating a child killer would be in poor taste in many more places than just the US. Dismas |(talk) 18:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * My point is that imitating Hitler for laughs is more acceptable in the US, than say imitating a US child killer, since Hitler didn't murder children in the US. The same would be true of other nations where Hitler wasn't able to commit genocide. StuRat (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Having searched YouTube for an Obersalzburg clip, and then having watched a couple of other Hitler parodies linked from it, there are a couple of commonalities. First of all, as an Austrian, Hitler has an Austrian accent, which manifests itself most noticeably in a very strong trilled r, rather than the guttural r of standard German. Regardless of the situation, in the parodies, Hitler always seems to be holding a speech, so everything is very clearly enunciated, and all sentences seem to build up towards an applause line at the end. Thirdly, Hitler's voice seems a bit husky, like he has a slight cold, or like he has been talking somewhat loudly (not screaming) for some time. While these all strike me as appropriate, the most distinguishing features, are the moustache, the fringe and body langauge (hand motions seem to underline what is being said, and waving the index finger in the air seems to be a favourite.) My impression is that the audible characteristics are secondary to the visual characteristics as identifying markers for Hitler, but they do help the latter in giving the impression that this is Hitler.
 * Since I don't watch German television, I don't know how frequent such parodies are. I would support StuRat in thinking that such parodies probably are quite rare. I would postulate that, in addition to laws forbidding various things associated with the Third Reich (including the swastika), there is only that much satire that can be made using Hitler. Hitler is already dead, so there is little point in mocking him: 'Everyone' pretty much already agrees that his ideas probably weren't the best. If he is to be used, it would be as a symbol for something else, but then again, if you want to say that X person is behaving in a dictatorial manner, or that X person is a war monger, there is a very simple way to create the link with Hitler, i.e. putting Hitler's moustache or fringe on that person, rather than using Hitler himself. V85 (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * For German Hitler parodies see de:Kategorie:Hitler-Parodie, Hitler's characteristic voice is imitated for example by Christoph Maria Herbst as butler "Alfons Hatler", see and hear for example this YouTube video, 1:20. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. I should never have mentioned "satire". I don't really care about that aspect of it. All I really wanted to know is whether a recognizable "Hitler voice" remains part of the German-speaking popular consciousness. The Obersalzberg impression seems quite similar to the voice used by Bruno Ganz in Downfall, so it seems that there is such a voice. But is it uniquely associated with Hitler, or is it just a generic impression of an angry, theatrical Austrian? L ANTZY T ALK 21:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hitler's voice was omnipresent in the Third Reich. He said himself (in Nuremberg on September 11, 1936): Once you heard the voice of a man, and that voice knocked at your hearts it wakened you and you followed that voice. For years you pursued it, without ever having seen the owner of that voice; you simply heard a voice and followed it. Hear Alfons Hatler singing "I did it my way" in this YouTube video, 4:01. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find a satisfying analysis quickly, but there is a recognizable Hitler voice, and it's entirely Hitlerian. An idiosyncratic theatrical voice indeed, but not typical for any particular Austro-Bavarian region. Hitler's rolling r and weird Lautverschiebungen are sometimes represented in written dialogue too: "Krieg" can become "Krrääg", "Bunker" can become "Bonker". Walter Moers  uses this in Adolf die Nazi Sau (""Äch bin wieder da" instead of "Ich bin wieder da" ("I'm back"), and here are three more frames exemplifying it). Sure, this too is satire, but most German speakers are familiar with what the real Hitler sounded like in his official recordings. I'm sure I've witnessed dozens of imitations (again, usually satirical) in public and private, by actors and non-actors.
 * On a sidenote, there is one private recording, where Hitler speaks in an eerily normal voice with a completely normal Austrian touch: the secretly recorded conversation with Mannerheim in Finland on June 4th, 1942. See Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim. I think only a minority of German speakers who have never heard that recording could identify Hitler, and I don't believe they'd find his diction and tonality special for an Austrian German speaker of his generation. I claim a majority could identify him from most of his recorded speeches though, and those who couldn't probably would not mistake him for someone else. ---Sluzzelin talk  02:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, everyone. Very informative and helpful answers. I've wondered about this ever since I saw Downfall. Having watched a bunch of impressions on YouTube, I think I have a pretty good idea of the Hitler-voice now, and of the foibles associated with his speech. I especially like this one, though it's obviously not the most realistic. L ANTZY T ALK 04:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

A Pangram of Sounds
What is the shortest sentence that contains all the phonemes of GA English when spoken? Inter change  able  20:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * See List of pangrams for some. Lesgles (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2012 (UTC)