Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 May 31

= May 31 =

Phoning
I recently watched several episodes of an American television series set in Chicago of 2010, and noticed that virtually all of the characters, of all generations, always used the verb "phone" for "calling someone on the telephone". ("Did you phone her yet?", "He just phoned me." ...) Has the verb "call" gone out of fashion in colloquial American English? ("Did you call her yet?" ...) Is there a distinction between the two? Does it have something to do with mobile phones? Or was this just the writer? Thanks for insights. ---Sluzzelin talk  00:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Now that your Q has found the right Desk, I can answer here:


 * Means the same thing, but "phone" is less ambiguous, IMHO, because "call" can also mean to shout out a person's name or call on them in person. StuRat (talk) 00:35, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The visiting case would always usually be "call on someone" or "pay someone a call", not just "call someone", so it would never not necessarily be confused with "phone".  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  01:07, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A variety of phrases, such as "He called earlier" or "When did he call?", could be ambiguous. 109.153.233.152 (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * As a college/post-college student who lives a few hours' drive west of Chicago, and I'd expect to hear "call," especially from my age group. At a guess, it's either a regional difference (my dialect is more rural-Midwestern, Chicago is urban North) or the writer's idiolectic preference (or both).  Lsfreak (talk) 02:55, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have anything to do with mobile phones. Remember, before they came into widespread use, it was "E.T. phone home". Deor (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * And before that, in 2001: A Space Odyssey, Heywood Floyd asked his daughter to tell his wife that he had "telephoned" and would try to "telephone" again the next day. That usage seems more formal than "called". And there's no ambiguity. The context makes it clear. "He called earlier" or "When did he call?" would obviously refer to a phone call, at least in the USA. The double usage of "call" is sometimes made fun of, though. As with the long-running radio and TV ads for Culligan water softeners. Salesman: "Call your Culligan man." Housewife: "HEY, CULLIGAN MAN!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Then there's the "Call me a taxi!", "OK, you're a taxi" joke. By the way [to the OP], this is not just limited to US English. The UK has exactly the same usage. Slightly off-topic, but I find it interesting that in shortening the word 'telephone', we have chosen to use the end of the word, rather than the beginning. With 'television', however, we watch the 'telly' in the UK. We don't say, "I saw something good on the vision today".  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * There's your answer: "telly"'s already taken to mean television, so there's only "phone" left. The start of the word is used in other -phone words because the ending is reserved for telephone (e.g. microphone --> mike; saxophone --> sax; etc).  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  20:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It's curious how "telly" is used in British English, and "TV" in American English. Unless it was because Milton Berle was known as "Mr. TV". :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:33, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I find it interesting because the phone existed long before the telly did. So 'telly' was not already taken at the time.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  03:47, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Shortening the verb form from "telephone" to "phone" has been common practice for at least 90-some years. Here's a song from 1916, which includes the line "...he went and drew a whole month's pay / to phone and say..." This may also be of interest in showing how long we've had wireless telephones. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it is pretty clear why 'television' was abbreviated 'TV' or 'telly', rather than 'vision': Vision is already a word in relatively common usage in English, whereas TV and telly are clearly unambiguous. For 'telephone', using 'phone' doesn't yield any similar sort of ambiguity, as 'phone' isn't a term that is used in the common vernacular.
 * As an interesting sidenote, where German has abbreviated 'automobile' to 'Auto', the Scandinavian languages have abbreviated it to 'bil'. When a German rides in his 'Auto', a Norwegian, Swede or Dane will be driving his 'bil'. The Scandinavian 'bil', is, however, a somewhat artificial construct, as it was the result of a contest to find a common Scandinavian word for automobile, rather than the result of organic language evolution. V85 (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The etymological equivalent of a camel: An object designed by a committee. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Merriam Webster redirects phone as a verb to telephone, and says the first use was 1877. OED dates it to 1889: "Telephone 1 Feb. 56/1   The expression ‘I telephoned So-and-So’, is often rendered ‘I phoned So-and-So.’"  M-W does note give a date for call for telephone use, but OED dates it to 1882: "J. E. K. Telephone 19   The means by which the Exchange operator knows which subscriber is calling is very ingenious and very simple."  OED's latest date cited for phone is 2004, and for call, 1928.  From personal experience as a New England native, I would consider call to be the more common word; phone sounds slightly old-fashioned or patrician; I would expect the same people who use summer as a verb to use phone as one.   --some jerk on the Internet    (talk)  14:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

This is The Good Wife (TV series), right? I noticed a few years ago this (to my ear) affected substitution of "phone" where typically one would say "call." It's probably a quirk of the writers, but I fanwank that because they are a Super Serious Law Firm doing Super Serious Business, their Super Serious calls are all "phoned." Catrionak (talk) 15:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, everyone, for your responses, and well-identified, Catrionak. What threw me off was everyone always substituting "phone" for "call", not just the people who share one work environment and thus might have adapted the Super Serious lingo, but outsiders too. Anyway, it's been a while since I lived in the US and I haven't been to Chicago in fifteen years which is why I asked here. It's comforting to read that "call" still sounds more typical or natural to some Americans. Thanks again. ---Sluzzelin talk  21:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It might be just a regional preference, like the "soda" vs. "pop" thing, or rhyming "aunt" with "ant" vs. "want". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

In case you are referring to the The Good Wife (TV series), the show's creator has gone on record saying that the odd usage of the verb "to phone" stems from his own experience. He grew up using this construction, and it creeped its way to the scripts. This is a known phenomenon in writing known as "Author Catchphrase". Basically this is when the author of a novel/tv show/movie reuses the same line (or a variation) in his or her work. See http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorCatchphrase for examples. Hisham1987 (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks Hisham! It didn't even occur to me to google, but sure enough what you say is mentioned by this blog, e.g.. Thanks too for the link to TV Tropes. Though I've spent far too many hours browsing through that site, I don't recall having encountered the term author catchphrase before. This question is now definitely resolved! ---Sluzzelin talk  00:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

"Shrew bread"
Hello learned humanitarians ! I recently heard on an english-speaking radio that "your president F. Hollande will have to put his pre-electoral pledges on a high shelf, like some shrew breads, and leave them untouched". I know the Soricidae carnivorous little frantic animal, & the taming of a shrew, & the Hebrew forbidden offertory breads (though, if I remember well, David had to eat them, in an emergency) but I wonder why those breads are called "shrew". And the recipe of "shrew bread" I found on the web (corn meal + bacon fat + eggs stirred & cooked in a skillet) if it recalls our mediterranean "matafan" (kill-hunger), is quite far from Hebrew standards, & confusing. Thank you kindly in advance for your answers. Arapaima (talk) 08:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * According to the article Showbread, the KJV refers to these loaves of bread as 'shewbreads'. My guess would be that whoever was presenting that commentary misspoke: He knew the breads were called 'shewbreads', but either misspoke (and just added an extra r) or his mind gave it a false etymology, namely 'shrewbread'. I recall I at first thought it was called 'bull-ox' (which sort of seemed to make sense, as it put two synonyms next to each other), whereas it is actually called 'bollocks'. V85 (talk) 08:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not a mistake by the speaker. Google and Google books show that "shrew bread" or "shrew-bread" are quite common alternatives for showbread.  and lots of results in Google Books. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Although not originating with the speaker, I'd say it is definitely a mistake, which was just copied by a lot of people. The term 'shrew bread' in the context of the Hebrew temple just does not make sense. The Hebrew is 'לֶחֶם הַפָּנִים', (bread of the face/presence). - Lindert (talk) 10:11, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Shew was the correct spelling of show before the 20th century.. Alansplodge (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hence Ed Sullivan's stereotypical comment about a "really big shew"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:26, 2 June 2012 (UTC)


 * That's funny, they are saying the same thing in France, except in the opposite direction - Hollande will have to bury his promises, not put them up on a high shelf! Adam Bishop (talk) 10:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Shrewbread is an obvious folk etymology. μηδείς (talk) 03:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot to all for "lighting up my lantern" (éclairer ma lanterne, as we say here in France). Hello Adam, from my family experience (& from the old houses I hired, visited, or moved out-in during my now rather long life) things not to be touched by children but which could be needed at any time (such as butcher knives, weapons, preserves, or contraception contraptions) were hidden by housewives on the upper shelf or on the top of big cupboards (where they might be forgotten during decades) rather than buried into cellars. As for money, it was usually tucked into a sock and hidden between piles of sheets in that same press, hence our expression (which 'll be for sure used a lot in the next future) : sortir son bas-de-laine (pull out one's wool-stocking) meaning "giving away one's hoard". Ours was a culture of presses. T. y.Arapaima (talk) 07:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

lanaugue
when was spanish first taught in north america? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.232.113.196 (talk) 23:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you mean in Spanish colonies, or in non-Spanish colonies? -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:47, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I know for sure that junior high and high schools which had foreign language programs were teaching Spanish, French, etc., at least as far back as the 1940s. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * A bit earlier than that, in the 16th century, certain Jesuit and Fransiscan missions taught Spanish to some of the indigenous people living in New Spain (including parts of what now lies in the Southwestern United States), though they also tried to translate their doctrine into the native languages, and in the beginning Spanish was probably not taught formally as a language, but more along the lines of having students memorize catechism and prayers as formulas, without understanding the language's structure and meaning. See for example Cycles of Conquest: The Impact of Spain, Mexico, and the United States on the Indians of the Southwest, 1533-1960 by Edward Holland Spicer, University of Arizona Press, 1962, ISBN 9780816500215, 422ff ---Sluzzelin talk  00:21, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you mean just in the US and Canada ? Obviously, Spanish has been taught formally in Mexico and Central America (which most consider to be part of North America) since they had schools, and informally before that, in the home. StuRat (talk) 19:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

An interesting if somewhat off-topic anecdote is that early explorers of NE Canada met natives who knew a little Basque which they had gotten from Basque cod fishermen. μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)