Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 November 1

= November 1 =

Second languages by number of speakers
I have been looking at the feedback for our article Second language, and a couple of people have requested a list of languages sorted by the number of second-language speakers. There is plenty of information about languages by the number of total speakers, but I'm not sure where to look for information about the number of second-language speakers. Ethnologue, for example, has the number of speakers of a language in various different countries, but only occasionally says anything about whether those speakers are L1 or L2 speakers. And of course, there is the thorny question of how well one needs to speak a language to consider it a second language. I expect that any answers to this question that appear in reliable sources will involve a degree of guesswork, and that any article or list we made about this would need to do a lot of explaining and clarification of the figures. Nevertheless, I think it would be a good idea to try and compile a list if we can. Does anyone know a good place to start looking for this information? — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 02:48, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * See List of languages by number of native speakers, which also gives estimates of the total number of speakers for some languages. Duoduoduo (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * gives the total number of speakers for the top 30 languages. Duoduoduo (talk) 18:24, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Those look like they could be a good basis for starting a list article on the topic. Thanks! — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 15:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Chinese characters in File:Tsingdao Brewery.jpg
What are the Chinese characters in File:Tsingdao Brewery.jpg? I mean the ones at the top, the ones on the gate, and the ones on the green sign next to the gate (the English says "Reception Center") - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * On top, 青岛啤酒，世界之醉 (Qīngdǎo píjiǔ, shìjiè zhī zuì) (more or less, "Qingdao Beer which gets the world drunk"); on the metal gate arch, 青岛啤酒博物馆 ("Qingdao Beer Museum").  On the green sign, the last two characters are of course 中心 (center), but I can't read the first two. Incidentally, here's the museum web site: http://www.tsingtaomuseum.com/index.htm -- Vmenkov (talk) 04:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * P.S. The green sign is actually 游客中心 (Visitor Center), as seen in http://www.bbker.com/D286419.html -- Vmenkov (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! So "Tsingtao Beer Can Give you passion and happiness" would be "青岛啤酒可以给您幸福" right? That way the Chinese sign is known in English and the English sign is known in Chinese! The "World of Tsingtao" would be "青岛啤酒世界" right? "Since 1908" would be "以来1908年" (as in product began in 1908) right? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "世界之醉" is a pun on 醉 (drunk) sounding the same as 最 (extreme, topmost), "世界之最" is a common expression meaning "best in the world", so collapsing the pun together gets you something like "the best intoxicant in the world".
 * If I was translating "Tsingtao Beer Can Give you passion and happiness" literally into Chinese, I'd say something like "青岛啤酒可以给您激情與幸福". (You left out the "passion")
 * "Since 19xx" when used on products in China is usually translated as "始于19xx". By the way, the grammatical way to use "以来" is to put it after the year. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Palace Guard! I added a lot to the annotations of this picture WhisperToMe (talk) 15:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Teuruarii IV: French translation
"A la suite des instances du Gouverneur, Teuruarii IV est venu à Papeete, accompagné des dignitaires de l'île, au mois de mai 1900, pour faire connaître son adhésion aux propositions qui lui avaient été faites. Il signa, en conséquence, le 11 dudit mois, une déclaration concernant la réunion à la patrie française de l'île Rurutu et de ses dépendances (partie des îlots Maria), et, le 25 août suivant , le Gouverneur prenait officiellement possession de l'île Rurutu. Cette solennité eut lieu en présence des officiers de l'avisotransport Aube, des fonctionnaires et de la population de l'île, et nos couleurs, arborées sur cette nouvelle terre française aux lieu et place du pavillon du Protectorat, furent saluées par l'Aube de vingt et un coups de canon. "
 * "Following instances of Governor Teuruarii IV came to Papeete, accompanied by dignitaries of the island, in May 1900, to publicize its support for the proposals that had been made. He signed as a result, 11 of the same month, a statement of the meeting at the home of French Rurutu island and its dependencies (Part islets Maria), and on 25 August, the Governor officially took possession of the island Rurutu. The ceremony took place in the presence of officers avisotransport Aube, officials and the population of the island, and our colors, this new tree on French soil to place the flag of the Protectorate were greeted by Aubc twenty-one gun salute."

What kind of ship was the Aube? What exactly is meant by "following instances of Governor", and at whose home was the meeting?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Aviso Rojomoke (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I would translate this as:
 * "Following the behests of the Governor, Teuruarii IV came to Papeete, accompanied by the dignitaries of the island, in the month of May, 1900, in order to make known his adhesion to the proposals that had been made to him. Consequently, he signed, on the 11th of said month, a declaration concerning the reunion to the French fatherland of the island Rurutu and its dependencies (part of the islets of Mary), and, on the following 25 August, the Governor officially took possession of the island Rurutu. That solemnity took place in the presence of the officers of the aviso-transport [a type of warship] Aube, of the functionaries and of the island’s population, and our colours, mounted on that new French land in the place of the pavilion of the Protectorate, were saluted by the Aube with twenty-one cannon shots." Iblardi (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The Aube aviso-transport is listed at lettre A on this site. She appears to have been launched in 1886, was was armed with 4 x 138mm cannons, 2 x 90mm cannons, and 3 x 37mm "canons-revolver", which I think refers to the 37mm "Hotchkiss revolving cannon", a type of machine gun (see Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon). -  Ka renjc 10:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is a page that shows a photograph of the Aube — AldoSyrt (talk) 14:11, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Some other passage in French books, I didn't understand. Please answer below each passage. Thank you.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Taai, Teuruarii V, vécut au début du XXe siècle. Son fils Toromona, 1922, Teuruarii VI, est l'actuel chef de Moerai. Il a effectué il y a quelques années un voyage en France lors des festivités du 14 juillet et s'est présenté aux élections à l'Assemblée Territoriale, le 14 octobre 1962, avec Tetuamanuhiri Tetaumatani dit Tau comme colistier. Il a recueilli un nombre appréciable de votes. Un fils Maeua, Teuruarii VII, est né en 1941. Une branche cadette des Teuruarii descendante d'Epatiana joue un rôle important à Avéra, devenu district depuis 1962. Atitoa a Teuruarii a été le chef de cette circonscription du sud de l'île avant la Deuxième Guerre mondiale. Son fils Ama'itera'i a poursuivi cette tradition et est un personnage indiscuté à Avéra. Avec son frère Tai- ri a Teuruarii, un des meilleurs cultivateurs de Rurutu, il est le propriétaire de Te'autamatea à Vitaria sur laquelle se dresse encore le grand marae Tararoa. Il est intéressant de constater qu'à Rurutu des élections démocratiques ont porté au pouvoir administratif local les descendants les plus titrés dè l'ancienne noblesse locale.
 * Taai, Teuruarii V, lived in the early twentieth century. His son Toromona, 1922 (is this a year of birth?) Teuruarii VI is the current head of Moerai. He made a few years ago a trip to France during the festivities of July 14 and ran for election to the Territorial Assembly, October 14, 1962, with Tetuamanuhiri Tetaumatani Tau said as his running mate. He has collected a significant number of votes. Maeua a son, Teuruarii VII, was born in 1941. A younger branch of Teuruarii down (better translation?) Epatiana plays an important role in Avera, became district since 1962 (is this saying Avera became a district in 1962?). Atitoa has Teuruarii was the chief of the district south of the island before the Second World War (what does this mean?). Ama'itera'i his son continued this tradition and is a character undisputed Avera. (better translation) With his brother Tai-ri Teuruarii one of the best farmers Rurutu, he is the owner of Te'autamatea to Vitaria on which still stands the great marae Tararoa. It is interesting to note that Rurutu democratic elections brought to power local administrative descendants dè the most successful former local nobility.........(I put parentheses around the area I don't understand from the google translation, a really good complete translation of this paragraph would be really great). This is my more important request.


 * "Le roi Taatini et trois guerriers furent tués dans les tarodières d'Avera . "
 * Is this talking that he was killed in a taro field at Avera or something?
 * "King Taatini and three warriors were killed in the taro fields at Avera" — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "Sa visite à Maria, jusqu'ici inhabitée justifie plus tard la revendication des habitants de Rurutu sur l'atoll. Le tribunal leur attribua collectivement en 1937, deux des îlots — où Ama'itera'i aurait laissé un marae, le reste étant donné aux gens de Rimatara."
 * His visit to Maria, uninhabited until later justifies the claim of the inhabitants of Rurutu Atoll. The court attributed to them collectively in 1937, two islands - where Ama'itera'i have left a marae, the rest being given to people Rimatara. (What does this mean?)
 * Not a translation, but some explanations. He visited Maria, that was inhabited at this time. Later, inhabitants of Ruru Atoll laid claim to Maria. In 1937 the court gave to the inhabitants of Ruru, as a common ownership (no a part to each one), only two islets, those where Ama'itera'i had left a marae. The other islets (of the atoll) were given to the inhabitants of Rimatara. — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Son successeur Paa, Teuruarii III, présida d'une main ferme à la prospérité du petit royaume protestant de Rurutu.
 * His successor Paa, Teuruarii III, presided with a firm hand in the small kingdom prosperity Protestant Rurutu. (Better translation)
 * Son fils Epatiana, Teuruarii IV, (1879 ?-1933) fut le dernier roi de Rurutu, devint chef pensionné de la République Française et recevait à ce titre une allocation de 800 fr or.
 * What does it mean he became a Chief of the French Republic?

- Some of those near the end: "uninhabited until then, later justified", "two of the small islands" "...to the prosperity of the small Protestant kingdom..." You overlooked pensionné... -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I still don't understand what the second part means about the 1937 court ruling or what not. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah it said " pensioner became chief of the French Republic" does it mean the chief (Teuruarii) became a pensioner of the French Republic--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * His son Epatiana, Teuruarii IV (17879 ?-1933) was the last king of Rurutu; as a former chief, he became a pensioner of the French Republic and received an allowance of 800 gold francs. (the text doesn't say if that's a yearly allowance of a lump sum). --Xuxl (talk) 11:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It says he became a pensioned chief of the FR. You sometimes don't seem to pay much attention to word order... AnonMoos (talk) 13:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * In the phrase Atitoa a Teuruarii a été le chef, the first word "a" is part of the name, not the avoir verb: "Atitoa a Teuruarii was the chief" — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Une branche cadette des Teuruarii descendante d'Epatiana: "A younger branch of Teuruarii that was descended from Epatiana" — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Un personnage indiscuté: ~ "A great figure" (with great authority) — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:48, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Areva became a district in 1962. — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

dornthly dog pest
A tombstone inscription (Girod Street Cemetery in New Orleans) read: ''Alas that one whose dornthly joy had often to trust in heaven should canty thus sudden to from all its hopes benivens and though thy love for off remore that dealt the dog pest thou left to prove thy sufferings while below. Sacred to the memory of Robert John, a native of this city, son of Robert and Jane Creswell died June 4, 1845 age 26 years 7 months'' (see, ). It is quoted in the nobel-prize travelogue Travels with Charley: In Search of America. Were the Creswells real persons, the inscription a real inscription and what was meant? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks to me like a text mangled by an engraver who did not speak English or was illiterate. I expect that "dornthly" stands for "earthly". In addition there appears to be some words missing, and the word order has been shuffled as well. Googling the first few words of the quote brings up a few sources that indicate that no one seems to have the faintest idea of what the epitaph means, but that its bizarre poetry makes it quotable. --Xuxl (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Firstly, we're dealing here not with an inscription that is on a gravestone, but one that a writer says is on a gravestone. My first thought was that the lettering is very worn, and different readers will make out different "words".
 * But then I read "Veracity of Travels", where I see:
 * ''Steigerwald concluded that Travels contains such a level of invention, and Steinbeck took such great liberty with the truth, that the work has limited claim to being non-fiction.
 * Bill Barich said "I'm fairly certain that Steinbeck made up most of the book". There's your grain of salt.
 * Speaking of grains of salt, I'm not sure why you describe it as a "nobel-prize travelogue". Steinbeck did win the Nobel, the prize being announced when Travels with Charley had only very recently been published.  The prize could not possibly have taken the book into account; it was for his body of work done before then.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * My quote is not from Steinbeck (who, if we believe the wikipedia quote in Travels with Charley: In Search of America, has "darnthly" instead of "dornthly"). It is from from the 1938 New Orleans city guide, referenced in my question. The "nobel-prize travelogue" in my question alludes to the Nobel Award Ceremony Speech of 1962 mentioning it at length (about one sixth of the award ceremony speech). Does Greco San Pablo in Travels with Charley: In Search of America and also in this article in Wall Street International refer to San Pablo painted by El Greco? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I see. Thanks.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Toilet signs
Not exactly a language question, but couldn't find another place to ask... In Poland they have triangles (men) and circles (women). Are there any other countries with non-standard (i.e. no pictogram of men/women, or first letters of the respective words for men/women) toilet signs? I am not looking for rare/funny signs, but for signs which are commonly used in the country. bamse (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this really common in Poland? I'm curious as to where this originated since it wouldn't be obvious to me which door I was supposed to go through at all.  Dismas |(talk) 19:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not just Poland, apparently, but also California uses this symbolism. Here's a look at some possible answers. Angr (talk) 20:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't know why they don't just show a guy whipping it out and a woman squatting if they want to be clear for the illiterate. Are there any signs like that besides in nightclubs? μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This old RD discussion may also be of interest here. Angr (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Medeis -- you can see signs somewhat along those lines (though less dynamically vulgar) at File:Ladies&gents.JPG... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It used to be common in Poland. You can still see it on old public toilets, but new ones use man and woman-shaped pictograms. — Kpalion(talk) 21:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Having only run across the symbolism in California many years ago, I vaguely recall some statement about it being for the benefit of guide dogs for the blind -- you could give them the command for "mens room" and they knew which was which. I have NO referencable source for this memory.
 * DaHorsesMouth, today 184.100.84.47 (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That actually makes a lot of sense. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * So dogs can look up at a sign on a door, and go through the right door? But they can only do it when the sign is a very simple shape, not a complicated symbol or word? 04:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.118.165 (talk)
 * Yes, exactly. Many intelligent animals can be trained to recognize geometric shapes.  See the not particularly well-written article dog intelligence especially for the see also links at the bottom which may be more helpful. μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)