Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 November 11

= November 11 =

Mandarin and Cantonese
Are Mandarin and Cantonese simply different dialects or completely different languages, is Mandarin the dominant language for national economics and governance in China? What would be an English comparable (or US comparable) to the two languages as well as which one would be more expected in government or financial dealings? Thanks. Marketdiamond (talk) 04:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * For the first question, see a language is a dialect with an army and navy. Mandarin and Cantonese are clearly different enough to be classified as two separate languages, but for political reason there such a possiblity is denied. As per the second question, I can't understand it properly. --Soman (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have always hated that a language is a dialect with an army and navy quote. I understand what it is supposed to mean, but what is a language with an army and a navy a dialect of? Dialect, by definition, is a sub-language, with the word 'language' reserved for the totality of all dialects within that language. It's gibberish.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If a genus (or higher taxon) has only one species, what is it a species of? —Tamfang (talk) 05:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * A gorilla is a species of gorilla, called 'gorilla gorilla'. We don't say 'Chinese Mandarin', or 'Chinese Cantonese'. What would you say? "A gorilla is a gorilla with a gorilla and a gorilla"? :)  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  06:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * For the 2nd part, is one more dominant than the other particularly in Chinese government and finance? I understand there are cultural differences with a very strong tradition in centralization and top down norms (see for example Tibet) not asking for a political commentary on the ethos of it just wondering if the powers that be make it difficult to transact business or deal with the courts or government in anything other than Mandarin despite Cantonese being used just as much.  And thanks for the reply.Marketdiamond (talk) 07:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Calling Mandarin and Cantonese "dialects" is a bit like calling English and German "dialects" of the one language. They are two languages written the one writing system, in this case the Latin-derived alphabet (and for Mandarin and Cantonese, Chinese characters). At a written level there are some similarities: "finger" and "Peter" in German are "finger" and "Peter".  (Caution: incoming IPA squiggles)  Unlike English "fing-gur" and "Pee-tur", they are pronounced "fing-ur" and "Pay-tur" in German (en: /ˈfɪŋgɘ/ and /ˈpiːtɘ/ and de: /ˈfɪŋɘʀ/ and /ˈpeːtɘʀ/)
 * The Chinese character for Lee Kuan Yew's name is "李光耀". In Mandarin it's pronounced Lǐ Guāngyào, but in Cantonese it's pronounced "Lei5Gwong1jiu6"
 * It's not just differences in pronunciation. In German "I read a book" is "Ich lese ein Buch" ("I read a book"), but "I have read that book" is "Ich habe das Buch gelesen" (*"I have that book read"). In languages nerd terminology, English is a "Subject–verb–object" language while German is somewhat "Subject–object–verb" language. Even though they are closely related, the word order rules are markedly different. Similar with Mandarin (strictly "SVO") and Cantonese (sometimes "SOV").
 * Not at all. Translate the following sentence: 这本书我昨天买了. As you can see, the object can come first. This sentence emphasises when the book was bought. Mandarin is fairly free in structure and word order.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  09:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Chō-sugei example of the Dunning–Kruger effect: a wannabe [insert subject matter here] Randy in Boise posts something they saw on YouTube, which contradicts what what the experts are expert about. No way in heck am I even going to attempt to translate that sentence, TigerShadow.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It took me a while to understand what you were saying there, and I only understand half of it :) It maybe 超すげー to you, but it's 訳わからん to me. The point was, Chinese (of all dialects) often does not need subjects, or even objects, where the context is clear. Word order is free, in order to emphasize certain words. Just like in English - the translation of the above would be "This book, I bought yesterday," emphasizing when it was bought (as well as the book itself). English is the same. So is Japanese: 昨日買った、この本. (And it's 'Shadow Tiger')  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  10:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * An English speaker who has never learned German (with the exception of bizarre freaks who hoover up vocabulary from languages they have never learned and thus make it appear like they can "read" that language when in fact they are just guessing from context) might be able to pick up some shared vocabulary in written German, but would find spoken German unintelligible. That's the best analogy I can think of with Mandarin and Cantonese.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Addendum: "Mandarin Chinese" has been described a set of dialects and sometimes mutually unintelligible spoken languages, as has "Cantonese".--Shirt58 (talk) 11:34, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe an answer to the OP's request for an English analogy to there being a continuum from Mandarin to Cantonese would be the continuum from the English of England through Scottish English to Scots language. The latter would be unintelligible to a speaker of the former. Duoduoduo (talk) 15:04, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I find that a bit surprising. I am not an expert at all, but I thought Mandarin.  and Cantonese were quite a lot more different than English and Scots. 86.160.216.96 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Great observations all, appreciate it, as the OP here thou my 2nd part is still a bit unanswered. If a businessman interested in the legal and financial sides of China were to learn just one language would it be Mandarin or Cantonese, I understand Cantonese is used in southern and central China but is one of these preferred by the government, courts and big banks or is it simply different languagues in the courts, government halls and big banks depending on your location within China. And if the later do those in power, the judges, chief administrators and national bankers basically have to learn both languages to function, or is Mandarin the preferred language of those leaders? Marketdiamond (talk) 19:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Mandarin is the official language of China, and therefore everyone learns it. It is used in all government offices, even in Hong Kong. From a business point of view, Mandarin would be the most useful. If you do happen to be in a situation where no-one speaks Mandarin (e.g. a village out in the styx), then somebody who can will be found.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  09:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, Marketdiamond is not correct that Cantonese is spoken across southern and central China. See this map of Chinese languages.  The Cantonese language (or, more accurately, dialect group) is labeled "Yue" on this map.  Cantonese dialects are the local language only in parts of Guangdong and Guangxi provinces.  In fact, that isn't entirely accurate, because many urban areas of Guangdong province have had so much migration from the north that the prevailing language on the street is no longer Cantonese, but Mandarin (the Chinese language that locals and migrants know in common). Notice on the map that Mandarin (and dialects of Mandarin) cover a larger area of China proper than all of the other Chinese languages combined.  The non-Mandarin Chinese languages are increasingly spoken only in rural areas or between individuals who know that they share the language in common.  In urban areas of the People's Republic of China, even in the south, conversations between individuals who are strangers are likely to be in Mandarin, or at least to start in Mandarin until some clue suggests to a speaker that the other party speaks the same local language.  Most business communications in the PRC (except between small businesses whose principals know each other as speakers of the same local language), and virtually all communications involving the government take place in Mandarin. Marco polo (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks KägeTorä for that indepth analysis and I stand corrected Marco polo, good info on that learned something new there! Marketdiamond (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Or French as spoken in Paris through Occitan, and Catalan to Spanish and then through the Asturias dialect to Portuguese. But it is a bit more complicated in the case of the Chinese languages/dialects because of the form of the written language. I believe that the Hong Kong papers although written by Cantonese speakers for Cantonese speakers, in traditional characters, can be read by Beijing people with no knowledge of Cantonese. The same readers would not be able to make sense of TV reports from Hong Kong in Cantonese. (Am I right in thinking that the TV news is in Cantonese in Hong Kong?) Itsmejudith (talk) 17:41, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Standard Chinese (Pǔtōnghuà), a variety of Mandarin, is the official language of the People's Republic of China and any Chinese person who has received a full education there should know it. So if you want to learn Chinese for business, you should definitely start with Mandarin. Cantonese is still the dominant spoken language in Guangdong province and (especially) Hong Kong, but even there government officials and businesspeople should be able to speak Mandarin. As for the written language, it is usually Mandarin, even in Hong Kong; written Cantonese is usually restricted to informal contexts. You may want to read varieties of Chinese, if you haven't already. Lesgles (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

One should also note that Chinese is a heavily written language(and non-syllabic) for a super long time. There are not much written documents in pure Cantonese or other dialects. People may speak in dialects very differently, however when they write there are not much differences.--刻意(Kèyì) 02:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Related question: Cantonese or Mandarin in Canton government usage?
Given the above observation that Cantonese has somewhat different grammar from Mandarin, is Cantonese or Mandarin used in written proclamations by the Cantonese government? Duoduoduo (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I have moved the sub-question out of unrelated discussion addressing the initial question.
 * You will find that the government of Guangdong, the province, and of Guangzhou, the city which was traditionally called "Canton", are both written in Standard Chinese (Mandarin) and read out in that dialect on official channels. Standard Mandarin is the language of government at anything above a local level in contemporary China, and in any case many officials are appointed to posts far away from their native provinces and never bother to learn the tongue of the places they now govern, so having government announcements written or read in the local language would embarrass local Communist officials, a huge no-no in the Communist bureaucracy. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 19:50, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Why felis and not feles
If feles is nominative singular, why is Felis silvestris catus the binomen of domestic cat? Surtsicna (talk) 10:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Feles has a variant singular felis, which became increasingly used in postclassical Latin because it was unambiguously singular, while feles is identical to the plural form. Scientific terminology uses Medieval Latin (and later), not Classical Latin. Angr (talk) 12:20, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Though I assume "fēles" nominative singular would have had a short vowel, while "fēlēs" nominative/accusative plural had long vowels. Biological Latin was the originally the same as the Renaissance Neolatin in which Newton's Principia etc. was written, where authors often felt free to draw on any phase of Latin's history to find needed words... AnonMoos (talk) 12:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * No, nouns like fēlēs and nūbēs have a long vowel in the singular; their nominative singulars and plurals are really identical. Angr (talk) 20:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * A good quiz question: What do Latin cats have in common with English sheep? --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Lots of things. They are both mammals, for a start. They both have eyes. They are both domesticated. Some are white and some are black. They both have four legs. They both look funny when you put them in the washing machine. They both taste good. The list is endless. :)  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Cats taste like pigeon, but marinated in cat piss. I hope that's not your idea of tasting good.  And yes, don't ask. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Cats taste sweet (yn felys). By the way, why is the scientific name for badger meles and not melis? -Ehrenkater (talk) 17:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and don't forget that the vocative case is productive for cats too. -Ehrenkater (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * As in "Here, kitty, kitty"? μηδείς (talk) 00:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)