Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 November 21

= November 21 =

What comes before previous? After next?
I have a series of items I'm viewing one at a time. Let's say it's a page in a book. If I'm looking at my current page, the relative page before is called the "previous" page, and the relative page after is called the "next" page. What would you call the page that comes before the previous page? Antepenultimate is a little wordy. How about the page after the "next" page? --209.133.95.32 (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about graphic plates? μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "Antepenultimate" would refer to the 3rd-last item of the entire set. It's an absolute reference, not a relative one.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  04:07, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Contextually, one can simply say the prior page, and then the one before that, or the next page, and the page following that. But there seems to be a semi-formal language referring to plates that are not numbered, such as "overleaf" and the OP would do well to look into it a bit further if he's going to be publishing something with plates. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd usually say "page before last" and "page after next". ~Asarlaí 04:23, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec). I think the question is how to write this:
 * - 2-pages-ago, Previous Page, [Current], Next Page, 2-pages-from-now"
 * Are there any better words? Of course there are.  One answer is:
 * - Page before last, Last, [Current], Next, Page after next
 * anything better still? (it's a bit wordy)... --178.48.114.143 (talk) 04:25, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought the common usage was "last-but-one" and "next-but-one". --TammyMoet (talk) 10:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, and that can be extended as far as one likes. Such as in this excerpt from "Lord Lundy" by Hilaire Belloc:
 * ''The Duke -- his aged grand-sire -- bore
 * ''The shame till he could bear no more.
 * ''He rallied his declining powers,
 * ''Summoned the youth to Brackley Towers,
 * ''And bitterly addressed him thus--
 * ''"Sir! you have disappointed us!
 * ''We had intended you to be
 * ''The next Prime Minister but three:
 * ''The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
 * ''The Middle Class was quite prepared.
 * ''But as it is! . . . My language fails!
 * ''Go out and govern New South Wales!"
 * ''The Aged Patriot groaned and died:
 * And gracious! how Lord Lundy cried! --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Aha! A fellow Belloc fan. The correct title is: "Lord Lundy: Who was too Freely Moved to Tears, and thereby ruined his Political Career." I wrote the article on Cautionary Tales for Children which I was quite proud of at the time, but looks rather sparse now. Alansplodge (talk) 01:56, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Wasn't he marvellous! So simple, almost childlike, which is why his verse in all its trademark gruesomeness appeals to children of all ages and none.  And such joy to read out aloud.  It's guaranteed to lift a sombre mood more quickly, safely and effectively, and much more cheaply, than Prozac. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  05:22, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Might I add an additional recommendation for the edition of "Cautionary Tales" illustrated by Edward Gorey? "Synergy" is a dreadful word, but (IMO) it definitely applies to this book. Tevildo (talk) 13:21, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, they're very good; but having grown up with the Basil Temple Blackwood drawings, I still have to say that they are the gold standard for me (I wrote that article too). They were said to have inspired Dr Suess in his childhood. However, I was grown-up before I realised the anti-Semetic overtones of the drawings for Rebecca, Who slammed Doors for Fun and Perished Miserably. Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The entire poem may be read at Wikisource: Cautionary Tales for Children. Angr (talk) 16:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Guide to pronouncing (saying) mathematics in German
[cross-post from the Mathematics desk; I'd forgotten this existed, and thought it might stand a better chance of being answered here]

Hi,

So my German is mediocre, but a particular gap I've noticed is that I have no real idea how to pronounce most things that don't get written down. In particular I'd like to be able to better read academic texts in German (I study mathematics and logic, and a lot of the important texts were in German to begin with) but not knowing how expressions are pronounced makes that feel incomplete (not to mention I might actually want to talk about maths out loud at some point).

Expressions I'm referring to are things like $$\frac{a+b^2}{(-4)^n} = |\sqrt{f(x)}|$$ - not so much mathematical terminology (for which there are glossaries everywhere) but the more basic things. My attempt at reading that starts with "a plus b Quadrat über..." and trails off into failure around there. The bottom of has what I'm getting at, but in reverse. Does anyone know of such a resource?

Thanks,

D aniel  (‽) 08:10, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Our article List of mathematical symbols has an interwiki link to the German equivalent which gives the standard names. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Translation: a plus b Quadrat geteilt durch minus vier zur nten (Potenz) ist gleich dem absoluten Betrag der Quadratwurzel der Funktion von x. Bear in mind that this (as would be the English equivalent) is ambiguous.  It could be a+b^2 or (a+b)^2 (and so on) unless you insert a "Klammer auf" ( open parenthesis) and "Klammer zu" (close parenthesis) to clarify.  I have a dim suspicion that speaking Mathematese in public may motivate innocent bystanders to call for medical support :o) (divided by little zero bracket closed).  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I would read: "a plus b Quadrat durch minus vier hoch n gleich Betrag von Wurzel aus f von x". Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * To deal with the ambiguity in the first part, in English one could say "a plus b all squared". Does this translate into German? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:16, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what the "all" is doing in that English phrase. Does that really serve to make it "a+b²" rather than "(a+b)²"? In any case, in German, to express "(a+b)²" we could say "a plus b in Klammern zum Quadrat" (that's the way we were taught to memorize that bit in the binomial theorem, back at school). Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have been more clear. (a+b)2 can be spoken as "a plus b all squared", whereas "a plus b squared" is ambiguous and could be interpreted as either (a+b)2 or a+b2. I have also, in my lazy moods, used "a plus b ...[pause]... squared" to mean (a+b)2, sometimes drawing imaginary brackets in the air. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll just note that minus vier hoch n (or minus four at nth) suffers from the same problem: is it $$(-4)^n$$ or $$-(4^n)$$? These things aren't really meant to be pronounced, at least not unambiguously. When we do pronounce them, it will often just accompany the writing while we teach or explain to somebody. No such user (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * [Some related points for English were discussed in the section now archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 132 (October 2012).—Wavelength (talk) 17:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)]


 * In principle I agree with Fut.Perf. but would like to add that I would pronounce it as "a plus b Quadrat durch minus vier in Klammern hoch n" because otherwise it would be ambiguous too.  Als note that in German you never say "a über b" for a fraction.--Zoppp (talk) 21:44, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks for all the answers; that's all massively helpful. So informally it's fine to just say gleich for 'equals', and leave articles out? D  aniel  (‽) 23:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can just say gleich for "equals". Likewise you can just say größer and kleiner for "is greater than" and "is less than". 2n > 4 is zwei mal n größer vier. (Or zweimal?) Angr (talk) 12:38, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say zwei n größer vier, without the mal. No operator (visible, audible) = mal (times). About resources - for Deutsch-English the LEO.org dictionary is mostly useless, but the forums are mostly helpful. Pardon my German (Fiiiisch!) (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again; all very helpful. D aniel  (‽) 17:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Need a word meaning "fate"
My father was a WWII veteran. He had friends in the service. His closest Army friend was "Buddy". After the War they lost contact with each other. Recently he came across another Army friend of his, Dick, that also knew Buddy quite well. He asked Dick what ever happened to Buddy. What is a better word that means this, something similar to "fate" or "destiny" or "outcome" or "result".--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Kismet or serendipity might suit your purpose. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 12:31, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You question is a little unclear, Doug. If your Dad was asking Dick what ever became of Buddy, what word would go in the space: "What was Buddy's ____".  Is that your question?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:14, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I took it to mean the fortuitous coincidence of running into someone who knew the other guy too. Maybe Doug needs to elaborate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the OP means "What was Buddy's ____", since he gives possible not-quite-good-enough answers as fate or destiny. As the OP suggests, these don't quite work since they  connote the end of a process, not the entire process. His fate or destiny might be that he became a billionaire, or that he died in a motorcycle accident. But his _____ was that he got out of the army, took a job as a mechanic, moved from Tennessee to Oregon, married and divorced twice, and retired to Hawaii. I can't think of a good noun for this -- as far as I can see, "Whatever happened to him" is the best way  to put it.  Duoduoduo (talk) 17:55, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, or alternatively "What became of Buddy?" --Viennese Waltz 18:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * One-word solutions might be "history" or "bio" or even "story". But I agree that the OP has found the best expression already. Tevildo (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Related terms can be found in a thesaurus under such terms as denouement, sequel, windup, follow through, sequel and continuation. But "What ever became of Buddy?" seems satisfactory for many uses. Bus stop (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Or, whatever happened to the likely lad?


 * I was away for a couple of days during Thanksgiving - but the end result here is that YOU DID answer my question nicely. I have what I need. Thanks to all and Happy Holidays. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Stative VS dynamic verb: sustain
Good evening, In the following sentence, would you say "sustain" is a stative or a dynamic verb? "It appears that the taxpayers are sustaining heavy losses, and the council leadership is asleep at the wheel." Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.140.223.17 (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Stative verbs aren't normally used with the present progressive (to be ...ing) and in this sentence they really means "are suffering", so it's definitely being used dynamically. (Other uses like "the building is sustained by a concrete foundation" might more normally be stative, but even then one could say "even though the hurricane caused widespread damage the building is being sustained by its concrete foundation.) μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Medeis. I rather thought as much. 193.52.208.122 (talk) 12:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * For a stative example: "Earth is the only planet we know which sustains life." One wouldn't normally say "Earth is sustaining life". μηδείς (talk) 17:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)