Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 November 27

= November 27 =

Rhyming words ending in "one"
The way I learned English (I start with this qualification so as not to give the impression that I believe my pronunciations are the correct or the only ones)

- bone rhymes with cone, crone, hone, lone, pone, prone, sone, tone, and zone;

- done rhymes with none, and one;

- gone rhymes with shone.

Considering words not ending in "one":

- bone also rhymes with groan, Joan, loan, moan, roan;

- done also rhymes with bun, dun, fun, gun, nun, pun, run, sun, tun, ton, won,

- gone also rhymes with brawn, con, dawn, fawn, lawn, anon, pawn, prawn, wan, yawn.

Rather than looking up such words in dictionaries or other pronunciation guides on a word by word basis, is there any more-or-less pronunciation "rule" which covers these cases?

Thank you, Wanderer57 (talk) 01:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, there isn't. Marco polo (talk) 01:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of the word "sone" (do you mean sown?), and in American English "shone" rhymes with tone, not gone. I'm fairly certain it's different elsewhere.  "Con, anon, and wan" have the vowel of father in my Delaware Valley dialect, (the same in NYC), and do not rhyme with "fawn, lawn, yawn", etc.  I do not, but some Americans merge them, see the cot-caught merger.  There is no rule that applies by spelling or grammar; buy a rhyming dictionary, or use the rhyme feature of wiktionary. μηδείς (talk) 01:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you both. Sone is a unit for "perceived loudness".  Wanderer57 (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * And just in case it's not obvious from the above, for most American speakers:
 * gone rhymes with con, anon, and wan.
 * but gone does not rhyme with brawn, dawn, fawn, lawn, pawn, prawn, or yawn. - Nunh-huh 03:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It does if you have the cot-caught merger. -- Jayron  32  04:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see what that has to do with it. I use the caught vowel for gone.  Do people really pronounce it "gon"?  I can imagine that in Chicago, maybe. --Trovatore (talk) 04:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It has everything to do with it. For people who have the merger, they use the exact same vowel sound in the words "don" and "dawn".  Which vowel sound the merge to depends on the specific dialect, but dialects with the merger use the same sound for both sets of words listed above.  If you were raised in New England like me, you get the complication of the cot-caught merger with the mama-comma distinction.  That is, I pronounce cot and caught (... don and dawn... gone and brawn, etc.) with the same vowel, but words like mama and comma have different vowels for me.  Such is the beautiful variety that is English.  -- Jayron  32  04:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it would have something to do with it, if anyone without the merger in fact pronounces it "gon". That's the part I have trouble buying. --Trovatore (talk) 04:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * See below in my response to Medeis. New England uses that vowel for that word.  -- Jayron  32  07:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * But per your response, they have the merger, so that doesn't count. What I have trouble believing is that there is any accent that makes the distinction, but uses the "cot" vowel for "gone". --Trovatore (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well my northern English pronunciation uses the shortest possible "o" for gone (gŏn as in pŏt), and we certainly don't have the cot-caught merger, but I suppose we are "foreign" to most Americans.   D b f i r s   18:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Southern English here, and I also do not have the cot-caught merger, and use the 'cot' vowel for 'gone'. Using the 'caught' vowel instead would sound very affected and high-class. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised to hear that "shone" rhymes with "tone" (Medeis). Does this mean that "shone a light" and "shown a light" are homophonous?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  04:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In my dialect they are. -- Jayron  32  04:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * See "Abalone" (abalone) and "Anemone" (anemone) and "Zabaglione" (zabaglione).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 06:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC) and 06:40, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about, Wavelength? that "-one" rhymes like abalone and anemone has nothing to do one way or the other with the cot-caught-merger, since they have owe vowels, not ah vowels or awe vowels.  μηδείς (talk) 06:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Nunh huh, Nunh huh! perhaps a third of the US by population shows the cot-caught merger.  See this map:http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map1.GIF.  The blue areas, representing the most densely populated areas of the US: the NE, the MidW, the South and urban Texas which maintain the distinction.  Rural Northern New England and Rural western Pennsylvania merge the cot and caught vowels to caught.  The west coast merges it to cot--hence it's overrepresentation in media due to California's 38 out of 300 milion.  Even areas where the merger is nonexistent may have different frequencies.  In Philly one says /hatdɔg/ while in New Enmgland it's /hɔtdɔg/ and in the South it's /hatdag/.  Only California (38/300 million) and the vast empty west merge both to the Father vowel.  The rest of the country disagrees with that. μηδείς (talk) 06:45, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Two-thirds seems to be a majority to me. - Nunh-huh 19:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You claimed that for "most American speakers", gone rhymes with con but not with dawn. That's not right at all.  For speakers with the merger, gone rhymes with both con and dawn.  Among those without the merger, on the other hand, I think you'll find that the large majority rhyme it with dawn.  The other contributors here who report that they rhyme it with con are both from England, not America. --Trovatore (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Just a little correction on the cot-caught thing: it isn't merely Rural Northern New England: You map has red dots in Boston and the Merrimack Valley, two of the densest populated parts of New England; it's only Rhode Island and Connecticut (both of which have significant influence from New York) that maintains the distinction. Boston accent explains the cot-caught merger in New England; they merge to /kɒːt/ which is the same pronunciation that the "cot" version gets for places that make the distinction.   -- Jayron  32  07:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm a midwesterner, where "gone" rhymes with "dawn" - except maybe in Chicago, where it could rhyme with "John". And "one" does not rhyme with "done" unless you're making a pun on "wun". "One" normally rhymes with "John". "Done" is homophone of "Dunn". "Shone" does not rhyme with "done", it's homophone of "shown". And "con", "anon" and "wan" do not rhyme with "gone", they rhyme with "Don". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Detroiter here, and mostly I agree with Bugs, although "one" does rhyme with "done" here, and neither rhymes with "John". StuRat (talk) 08:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Could be a big-city thing. Where I come from, "one" can be a homophone of "won" or rhyme with "done", basically a "uh" sound, like hesitation; but more often it's a homophone of "wan" (or "Juan" if you ignore the "J"), and rhymes with "con", "Don", "John", "Lon", "Ron", "Von", etc., basically an "ah" sound, like what your doctor tells you to say when he uses his tongue depressor. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * And also wondering if it's "how we hear it". For example, the song "One", from A Chorus Line. To me it sounds like the way I've been describing it. But it may sound differently to you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "One", "won", and "done" all rhyme, to me, along with "bun", "dun", "fun", "gun", "Hun", "nun", "pun", "sun", stun", and "ton". That's also how I hear it in the song.  StuRat (talk) 02:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, try this one: Del Shannon lip-synching "Runaway". Sure sounds to me like "wahn-der" rather than "wuhn-der". Especially when he falsettos "I wah-wah-wah-wah-wahn-der". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I wouldn't pronounce it that way, unless trying to force a rhyme. StuRat (talk) 03:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That's interesting, Bugs -- I didn't know there were places that don't rhyme "one" with "done" but rather with "John". What is the IPA vowel used in "one" and "John"? Duoduoduo (talk) 15:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Our article says "ɒ"   D b f i r s   19:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That just gives a generic pronunciation for John. I was asking specifically about Bugs' dialect in which the vowels in "John" and "one" are pronounced alike -- I'm wondering whether maybe they are both pronounced halfway in-between /ɒ/ and /ʌ/. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Like the first syllable of "wonder"... or "wander", for that matter. Where I come from "wander" and "wonder" are homophones. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Wonder is "wʌndə" but wander is "wɒndə" (at least on this side of the pond). Does BB pronounce them both with "ɒ" or "ʌ" (as in won)?  I agree that IPA isn't always helpful because people in different regions interpret the symbols differently.  Is there a better system?    D b f i r s   23:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't speak IPA, but I expect that pronunciation of "wonder" squares with the idea that "one" and "wun" are homophones. I'm thinking of Del Shannon's "Runaway", where he sings, "I wo-wo-wo-won-der..." and his way of saying "wonder" is a "wah" as the first syllable, not a "wuh". Obviously, this can vary regionally. I see that Del Shannon was a Michigander, which makes perfect sense, as he sounds very midwestern. Tom Hanks is a Californian, which is almost like being a midwesterner, and in the movie That Thing You Do!, where there's this group called "The 1-ders" and later just "The Wonders", it's again that same pronunciation that I've described. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's a rendition of the Christmas song "I Wonder As I Wander",30 seconds in and to me they're homophones, except for her rounding off the trailing "r", which is a singing technique. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The primary vowel sounds are quite distinctly different, to my ears. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Interesting. You have a musical ear, and you can probably make finer distinctions than I can. All I know is, in the American midwest we say "wonder" and "wander" the same way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I hear two vowels. Apropos of nothing:
 * Ralph: What's a battle?
 * Principal Skinner: Hahahaha, let's go.
 * Superintendent Chalmers: Did that boy say what's a battle?
 * Principal Skinner: No he said What's that rattle, it's about the heating duct.
 * Superintendent Chalmers: Hmm, it sounded like battle.
 * Principal Skinner: I've had a cold, so...
 * Superintendent Chalmers: Oh so you hear r's as b's?

μηδείς (talk) 05:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm confused - I am a native of the American Midwest (Illinois, not Chicago) as is my spouse but neither of our accents merge wonder and wander although she does sometimes merge outer and otter. Her offhand talk came close to merging wonder/wander but not in careful/aware speech (Detroit area accent). Nowhere near Del Shannon's way though. Where in the Midwest is wonder the same as wander? Rmhermen (talk) 16:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This discussion got into much deeper water than I as the OP was anticipating. Thanks for all your contributions.
 * Clearly I'm one of those people who has cot and caught merged. So thoroughly in fact that I can only think of one way to say these words that makes sense to me.  Wanderer57 (talk) 02:51, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Book
Pardon, if this is not a proper request but I am curious if any of our learned colleagues have read or have knowledgeable reaction to this book: Dialect Diversity in America Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Never seen the book (it seems to be just published), but William Labov is well known... AnonMoos (talk) 18:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Arouche in Spain?
Is there any word in Spain like Arouche? (What is it mean in Spanish). And is there any CITY (or something like it) in Spain that is called Arouche? 46.210.45.85 (talk) 20:23, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * My Spanish is far from perfect but I tried a couple of dictionaries and none recognizes "Arouche". It doesn't look like a Spanish word either.  Entry in google maps comes up with a couple of streets and places in Sao Paulo, so maybe it's Portugese?--Zoppp (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a part of Sao Paulo, in Brazil, and it's named after a person named José Arouche Toledo Rendon. Looie496 (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * For the curious; "Jose Rendon Arouche Toledo (Sao Paulo, March 14 of 1756 - São Paulo, June 26 of 1834) was a Brazilian soldier, lawyer, teacher and politician. He was the first director of the Faculty of Law of the Largo de São Francisco, a position he held from 1827 to 1833 . He owned much of the central area of São Paulo, now known as Vila Buarque , an area covering the current Largo Arouche and Republic Square."
 * But according to this website; "What does the name Arouche: Coming from Arouche, ANDALUCIA." (please excuse the machine translation, but you get the idea). Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * And finally; we have an article Aroche (it's close to the Portuguese border and "Arouche" seems to be the Portuguese language version of the name). "One of the least visited places in the Sierra". Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)