Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 13

= October 13 =

African languages
Why are (Sub-Saharan) African languages so much more phonologically complex than other languages? (tones, clicks, large phonemic inventories, etc.)--168.7.234.32 (talk) 01:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, that generalized statement is wrong. You're probably thinking of Khoisan, which is just a small group. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Some links: Khoisan languages, which is quite small, population-wise, compared to the Niger–Congo languages that dominate sub-Saharan Africa.Pfly (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Southern Africa is home to the Bantu languages and the Khoisan languages. The former are not terribly phonetically complex.  They include the Zulu language and the Swahili language among several hundred others.  They are a sub-branch of the Niger-Congo language family.  Most Bantu languages are tonal but not with very complex systems.  Zulu has two tones, Swahili as adopted as a lingua franca has lost its tones.  The Khoisan languages are noted for their clicks.  Their non-click consonant systems are not very complex.  If combinations of sounds with clicks are interpreted as single entities, and not clusters, they can have among the highest consonant inventories.  Zulu has just over 30 non-click and three click consonants.  If combinations aren't seen as clusters, it has about 48 consonants, a rather large inventory, with its five vowels and two tones on top.


 * The Nguni language subfamily of Bantu, which includes Zulu and the Xhosa language, the native language of Nelson Mandela, has inherited clicks from a Khoisan substrate language. These languages are very similar, but Zulu speakers may not understand Xhosa utterances with their even more complicated click inventory.


 * To the northwest of Bantu lie the remaining several hundred Niger-Congo languages (of which Bantu is a subgroup of a subgroup of a subgroup). Many of these languages are similar to Bantu in sharing noun prefix-classes, although this has largely disappeared in some, like the Yoruba language.  These diverse languages tend to be tonal and of CV type with moderate consonant systems and simple vowel systems, often with nasalization.


 * The Hausa language, spoken in Nigeria, is a member of the Chadic languages subgroup of the Afroasiatic languages, distantly related to Semitic, Berber and Egyptian. It has a moderately complex consonant system and five vowels with length and tone, totally about the same number of phonemes (40) as English.


 * To the northeast of the Bantu languages lie the very old and diverse Nilo-Saharan languages, which includes the Maasai language, the Dinka language and the Nubian languages among several dozen others. Their consonant systems don't make them stand out from the Niger-Congo languages.  (In fact, there is very controversial evidence that Niger-Congo may itself be a small sub-branch of Nilo-Saharan.  But you can't determine that just by saying the consonant systems are similar.)


 * Unfortunately I am not aware of any good surveys of African languages in general. Lyovin'sAn Introduction to the Languages of the World is cheap, excellent for the educated layman, and widely available.  It doesn't concentrate on Africa, though. μηδείς (talk) 03:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Are there theories as to why some languages (and language families) have more or less phonemes than others? My intuition says it is just "historical chance", but maybe there are other ideas? Anyway, that seems to be the basic question here (and in the next topic), why more in some and less in others? Pfly (talk) 03:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no natural selection in language evolution (although there may be sexual selection for complexity) so it is basically random. Sounds are lost that are difficult to pronounce (knight).  New sounds are borrowed into a language (clicks in Nguni) or caused to become phonemically distinct by outside influences (z, ʒ, and oɪ in English from French).  Sounds merge (marry Mary merry) and sounds split (halve have, trap bath).  See the remarks in the thread below as well. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Pacific Island languages
Why do Pacific Island languages (e.g. Hawaiian, Rapa Nui) have such simple phonology? --168.7.236.74 (talk) 02:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC) Because Proto-Polynesian *did. Why *did Proto-Polynesian such simple phonology? Er, I dunno. But that map is probably going to come up later in discussion. --Shirt58 (talk) 03:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a possible vague correlation between language spread and language simplification. See Johanna Nichols fascianting but highly speculative (to the point of numerology, sometimes) Linguistic Diversity in Space and Time.  The Georgian language and the North Caucasian languages have been in one place a long time.  People take pride in the dialect of their village.  When languages tend to simplify their sounds over time, they usually compound their words.  "I need a /seɪl/."  "What a boat-sail?"  "No, a garage-sale."  As Shirt58 has said, where a language can go depends on where it started out.  See drunken walk.μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not fold, spindle or mutilate
A question for oldies (like me)...

There's a discussion over at Talk:Punched card about the expression "Do not fold, spindle or mutilate". The article describes it as a "a motto for the post-World War II era." An editor has observed that "motto" isn't really the right descriptor for it, and has suggested "meme". I see that as anachronistic, since that word didn't exist back then.

Any suggestions? HiLo48 (talk) 05:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Aphorism ? Saying ?  Catchphrase ?  StuRat (talk) 06:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Maxim, adage, dictum, saw? Does anyone know how to say it in Latin?  Then we could call it "The baby boomers' brocard".  --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  06:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Maxim, motto, adage, etc all imply a certain significance that I don't think the phrase has - I think "catchphrase" works well (and certainly isn't anachronistic). "Catchword" is now a bit archaic, but would work for a century or so earlier. Andrew Gray (talk) 06:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * In the Emily Litella article, it says "The line "Never mind" became a lighthearted catchphrase of the era", which seems to be in accord with the meaning you want to express... AnonMoos (talk) 11:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed phrase aka set expression or set phrase or occasionally formula.  meltBanana  14:33, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Wha? Did memes not exist before Dawkins named them? —Tamfang (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * They were called "fads", "crazes" etc. Before the Internet, there was Xeroxlore... AnonMoos (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, isn't it nice to educate the young'ns occasionally? HiLo48 (talk) 07:07, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks folks. I like catchphrase. I'll take it back to the other discussion, and point it here as well. HiLo48 (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How about "mantra"? Roger (talk) 09:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Umm ... that works for me. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  07:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Rhyddfrydol
Morning reference desk regulars. The Welsh word for 'liberal' is 'rhyddfrydol'. Do we have any idea of the etymology of this word, given how different it looks and sounds? doktorb wordsdeeds 08:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Different": different from what? "Rhydd" is an adjective meaning "free" (as in speech). Marnanel (talk) 09:38, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the OP means it looks and sounds very different from "liberal". --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  10:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The History of the Welsh language is different from the History of the English language, and many words that mean the same look and sound completely different.--Shantavira|feed me 12:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's worth noting that Latin liber means "free", so rhyddfrydol is something of a calque. Deor (talk) 13:01, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Rhyddfrydol = rhydd-bryd-ol = free-will-adj.
 * According to Pokorny, rhydd ("free") is from an IE root prāi-, prəi-, prī-, "be willing", and is cognate with "free". Bryd ("mind, will") is ultimately from IE bher- ("bear, carry"), so related to "bear" and Latin "ferre"; but more immediately to Irish brith ("judgment"). So rhyddfrydol is partly related to "free", but not to "liberal". --ColinFine (talk) 17:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry, I didn't do very well with my question first thing in the morning. I am British and posted that question with only having one cup of tea beforehand so that's my excuse. Thanks for the answers - it's interesting to see the responses you've given, many thanks for the help.doktorb wordsdeeds 20:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help
Hi! What is the Arabic for "Offices of Air Algerie in Beijing" ? I want to add that to File:AirAlgerieOfficeBeijing.JPG - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "مكتب الخطوط الجوية الجزائرية في بكين" should work fine. --Soman (talk) 14:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Also what is the Arabic in File:Fmso front.jpg? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 01:15, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * " کلیة الطبا سوسة ". --Omidinist (talk) 04:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:04, 14 October 2012 (UTC)