Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 15

= October 15 =

Bristish
I noticed that "Bristish" is a common misspelling for "British". As there are so many of them, could you get your bots to fix it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by165.12.252.114 (talk) 06:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the page you want is "Bot requests". Gabbe (talk) 06:50, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It probably means people from Bristol.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  07:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You know right -- Q Chris (talk) 08:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, rightish, there are 49 instances of this misspelling in the whole English Wikipedia. Is that common? I have (hopefully) fixed them. If you use the search within WP for misspelled words you'll get a much more condensed report (try parrallel for example). Richard Avery (talk) 09:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How odd - my search shows 807 and previously showed over 1000, most still seem to be there. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * How odd, yourself. I get 49 in content pages, and 183 in the entire site.  What are we doing differently?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  11:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems that a google.co.uk search for site:en.wikipedia.org Bristish gives 1,040 results, but a serach on google.co, gives 800. The wikipedia's own serach gives 49! -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If you exclude talk and user pages from Google it is down to 111 matches but even then Google includes some correct spelling of 'British' on it's search results. Wikipedia under lists and excludes the match in some none prose area's and excludes results such as word variations, so you have to search separately for 'Bristishers' et cetera. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 12:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Those are interesting stastistics. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Typo rules used by AutoWikiBrowser and WPCleaner have now been extended to handle Bristish typos. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 12:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Boats/ships given feminine article in English
Why are (or were, if the practice has decreased) naval vessels described as "she"? It doesn't seem to be a linguistic carryover from other European languages that give nouns gender, because I checked that in French, "a boat" is "un bateau" (m), and "a ship" is "un navire" (m); in Spanish, "a boat" is "un barco" (m), and "a ship" is "un buque" (m); and I checked German, in which "a boat" is "ein Boot" (m), and "a ship" is "ein Schiff" (m). So why are (or were) boats/ships described femininely in English? 20.137.2.50 (talk) 13:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Here are links to five related discussions now archived.
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 13
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 February 2
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 17
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 23
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 27
 * —Wavelength (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * NB: In German both are neuter, not masculine - das Boot and das Schiff. -  Ka renjc 14:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Moreover, the German language nevertheless has the same tradition of referring to specific ships as feminine. For example, the German article on the MV Wilhelm Gustloff (de:Wilhelm Gustloff (Schiff)) starts out with "Die Wilhelm Gustloff war ein Passagierschiff". "Die" is a definite, feminine, singular, nominative article, even though Wilhelm Gustloff himself was a man, and even though, as pointed out by Karenjc, "das Schiff" (and likewise "das Passagierschiff") are neuter. ---Sluzzelin  talk


 * The German tradition of calling ships "she" is a very recent phenomenon. In books from the 1920ies you routinely encounter "he" for a ship. (Not, curiously, "it" although "das Schiff" is neuter, as Karenjc pointed out). Allegedly, emperor Wilhelm II wanted to emulate his British relatives not only in having a big navy but also in traditions surrounding the navy and thus started using "she" when referring to ships.  Whether that is true or not I don't know but it's not unlikely that it was a fashion that arose after the English usage.--Zoppp (talk) 21:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for providing the opportunity to quote from the famous tea-towel: “A ship is called a “she” because there is always a great deal of bustle around her; there is usually a gang of men about, she has a waist and stays; it takes a lot of paint to keep her good looking; it is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep; she can be all decked out; it takes an experienced man to handle her correctly; and without a man at the helm, she is absolutely uncontrollable. She shows her topsides, hides her bottom and, when coming into port, always heads for the buoys.” -Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the English articles (the, a/an) are completely indeclinable for grammatical categories; it's only in pronoun references ("she" etc.) that feminine personification of boats, countries, etc. is manifested in English... AnonMoos (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Is it likely that the beginning of the feminization of nautical vessels traces back to female busts being placed on the bow of them, whenever and wherever that first started to happen? i.e., are there, or are there not references to boats/ships as a 'she' before any boat/ship made with a female bust on the bow is known to have been made? 20.137.2.50 (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * See "Figurehead (object)" and Acts 28:11.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

"American" accent
I just love the accent of Elizabeth McGovern as Lady Cora in Downton Abbey, but what kind of accent is that? And is it her natural speaking voice? I am English and to me it sounds essentially American, but different from most American accents I am familiar with. What does it sound like to Americans? (Maybe it sounds British!) For those whe don't know the series, I could find surprisingly few clips on YouTube; just these short ones with not-great audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwZKPAY7fkU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQsLJP7mRgM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.4.150 (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't hear any accent at all, so I suppose that makes it my accent, General American. The one exception was the word "late", near the end of the 2nd clip, which sounded like "lyate" to me. StuRat (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * An aside: I watched Ordinary People last week, for the first time since I saw it at the cinema on first release in 1980/81. When the Elizabeth McGovern character appeared, I recognised her voice and face but could not for the life of me place where I knew her from.  Even seeing her name in the credits didn't cause pennies to drop.  I finished up checking her out here, and the first mention of Downton Abbey made it all clear.  Then I wondered how I didn't recognise her as Cora Grantham straight away.  She's hardly changed in 30 years.  Except, she wasn't wearing crinolines in Ordinary People.  Yes, that must be it.  Nothing to do with advancing Alzheimers.  --   Jack of Oz  [Talk]  19:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * She enunciates her /t/s clearly, not reducing them to flaps or glottalizing them. (General_American)  Other than that its a plain General American accent.  There is such a thing as Stage English and the Mid-Atlantic accent, but she doesn't really affect that.μηδείς (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Strange, it doesn't sound "plain" to me at all, it sounds quite distinctive. I wonder why. 86.128.4.150(talk) 20:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I love the show, have had a crush on McGovern since childhood, and as one might guess, have listened closely to her speech. She does pronounce her /r/s, unlike the Brits who have an RP accent on the show.  Other than enunciating very clearly I don't think she's got an peculiarities that stand out.  I'll have to listen whether she has the Mary-marry-merry merger.  Given the care of her speech I doubt it. μηδείς(talk) 20:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I just fast-forwarded through an episode. Unfortunately she really only has a minute or two of lines at most in an episode.  The only thing that stood out beside her /t/s was her speech rhythm, which sounded influenced by the received pronunciation accent.  Her stressed syllables were lengthened, as for instance, when she said the shell-shocked butler Lang "looked like a RAAAbit in front of a SNAKE." μηδείς (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I had recently watched the show together with an American (native American-English speaker having grown up in Southern California) who found McGovern's pronunciation to be special too, a bit like that of an American who has spent a long time living in England (which applies both to her character and to Elizabeth McGovern herself). I now revisited her diction in Once Upon A Time in America, almost 30 years ago and before she had moved to England, and, to me, it sounds distinct/unusual even there, though not the same as in Downton Abbey. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker, so I can't claim to hear the same subtleties an American person might hear. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I am downloading OuaTiA to compare. But yes, her accent on Downton Abbey is exactly what one might expect from an American in Britain, she's partially assimilated her speech to the locals.  Americans do, when speaking very carefully, (or did when I was a child,) clearly enunciate their /t/s.  When I was in choir in elemantary school the director made a point of it.  (You can hear Billy Joel make an effort to enunciate his /t/s in his singing.)  I can remember the director getting incensed when we sang "Silen' Nigh'".  See code switching and compare Madonna's acquired British accent. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * McGovern seems to have much the same upscale stage voice in Once upon a Time in America that she does in Downton Abbey. Given she's a native of Evanston, Illinois, you'd expect her to have the rather unattractive Northern cities vowel shift if she were a working class male.  As it is she seems to speak a midwestern form of General American similar to that of John Goodman of St. Louis, Missouri or Kate Mulgrew(Captain Janeway) of Iowa. μηδείς (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Abrogate
It is defined as: Repeal or do away with (a law, right, or formal agreement). However, the word is also used to mean: to treat as non-existant. Is this a valid form of usage? In this sentence: "Paul Ryan launched a withering attack charging the US president with ______ responsibility for the economy", are abdicating andabrogating equally acceptable verbs to use? ' Ankh '. Morpork  19:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The OED has the legal meaning as the first entry, followed by "To do away with, to put an end to; (occas.) to reject or deny."Marnanel (talk) 20:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Dereliction or abdication of his duty would be better than abrogation. μηδείς (talk) 23:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Abrogation of a person's own duty has a specific legal meaning in an administrative law context while dereliction and abdication have different specific meanings and, depending on the intention of the author here, they may well not be interchangeable. --PalaceGuard008(Talk) 09:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

caisse
Can you record the pronunciation of the word caisse in Quebec accent ? Fête (talk) 22:17, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * That should be [kɛ:s] in standard French, which would be [kaɛ̯s] (or [kei̯s] among older speakers according to our articleQuebec_French_phonology. But I have absolutely no personal experience with this myself, and am just giving you the links and what they say. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of youtube videos of politicians and journalists blathering on about the scandale de la Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec.Clarityfiend (talk) 06:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)