Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 21

= October 21 =

would usage in english
hi sir! i am trying to learn english correctly.i need your help to learn good english. my doubt is on would usage. "wish+subject+would can be used to express actions which the subject can control i.e the actions he could change if he wished." can you give some examples and explanation on the above  structure? i hope you help me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "I wish he would learn to leave the toilet seat down" is OK, "I wish I would eat less so as to lose 5 pounds" sounds a bit funny, though not blatantly ungrammatical... AnonMoos (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "I wish he would" means "I want him to, even though he doesn't", whereas "I wish I would" does indeed sound strange, though grammatically correct. When talking about one's self in this case, "I wish I could" would be more appropriate - the reasoning being, if you wish it, but have not accomplished it, then you have failed to do it so far, therefore the conditional tense of 'can' (='could') should be used, IMHO. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * As KageTora says, "I wish he would" means "I want him to, even though he doesn't". For contrast, "I hope he will" means "I want him to, and maybe he will". So "wish" refers to something that does not happen or will not or is very unlikely to happen, and "would" is used in that kind of situation; "hope" refers to something that may or may not happen, and "will" is used in that kind of situation. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

would usage in english2
hi sir! i am trying to learn english correctly.i need your help to learn good english. my doubt is on would usage “Wish+subject+would     can be used to express interest in the subject’s willing ness/unwillingness”. can you give some examples and explanation on the above structure? i hope you help — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 09:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You asked this exact question a few days ago, and received some answers. Do you need more information? Please help us to answer you better by letting us know what is unclear for you. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The previous question was about things the subject can control. This question is slightly different, in that it asks about the subject's willingness or unwillingness. Consider "I wish he would...." This implies that he very probably will not.... The reason he will not do it might be that he does not care and therefore does not bother, or that he does not want to. But if he cannot do it even though he is willing, I would say "I wish he could...." Duoduoduo (talk) 14:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Just a token
I presume that one of the more famous English short poems is Moondog's
 * The only one who knows this ounce of words is just a token
 * is he who has a tongue to tell that must remain unspoken.

As token means many different things in English, but by definition an icon of something valuable, I'm not able to figure out what "...just a token" wants to express and ask for help. --KnightMove (talk) 06:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 'Token' can also mean something almost valueless, as in 'a token gesture' - something which is done just to show you can. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Even using your specific definition, "just a token" is not the real thing of value itself. So, if that is the whole poem, it would suggest that speaking is of little value in the circumstances described (although poetry often has and is meant to have a personal meaning for the reader, so what's important is how you interpret it). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, if it helps, "token" in New York City, at the time this author was writing was probably most popularly used for a small metal coin, which you bought and used instead of money to ride the subway. (It represented money in a limited use). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The terms "token" and "icon" both mean a sign or symbol. Neither word necessarily suggests something of great value. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Token" here refers to a "love token", a keepsake. A lover gives his beloved a token inscribed with a poem. This poem is self-referential and seems to be about complicity. It is very clever in its simplicity. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks you all so far, this is great help! Judith: Where do you know this interpretation from? --KnightMove (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just my reading, but I can't see any other meaning of token working here. If you Google "love token" you will find some explanations, but there is not much in the article that love token redirects to in WP. A bit in our article wedding token. There are other references to love tokens in poetry. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to rethink: "... a tongue to tell that must remain unspoken." - I thought this refers to an individual secret language. Does it mean something else? --KnightMove (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Does it have anything to do with "the love that dare not speak its name"? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If one takes Judith's tack, that the subject of the poem is "love" and the poem is self referential, it suggests unrequited or forbidden love, or merely love that cannot be expressed in words (for any one of a number of possible reasons). In this reading, the first line refers to the poem itself, calling itself 'an ounce of words,' and a 'token' -- in both lines, the 'one' and the 'he' is the poet, who knows but can't speak. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe the word is "ton", not "tongue" - that makes it much easier to understand.Daniel (talk) 00:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's like the man who knows some truth but will be mocked by society and seen like a fool if he try to spread his knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.20.130.3 (talk) 01:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I may add that the version of Moondogs' couplet is attested in the biography of Scotto as:
 * The only one who knows this ounce of words is just a token
 * Is he who has a tongue to tell but must remain unspoken

Greetings, Lumumba — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lumumba10 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

More Chinese help
As the name of a building, is 津蒙大厦 read as "Jīnméng Dàshà" or does it use a different "meng"? WhisperToMe (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you know anything about the history of the building? If it refers to some kind of relationship between Tianjin and Inner or Outer Mongolia (as seems likely in the absence of any other context), then it should use the "Meng" in Mongolia, which is pronounced with the third tone "Měng" in Mandarin. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Google search of the name seems to confirm that initial suspicion: the building is used by the "国航天津内蒙古分公司北京培训中心", the "Air China Tianjin-Inner Mongolia Branch Company, Beijing Training Centre". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's a building that is associated with Air China. It houses two hotels too. Thanks for the clarification! I have also been trying to find the official English name for "津蒙大厦" - I am trying to see if it would be "Tianjin Inner Mongolia Building" or something like that??? - BTW this is the building File:JinmengHotelBuildingShunyi.JPG WhisperToMe (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * At a stab, I would say as an address it would be translated to "Jinmeng Building". We have a similar struggle with naming of railway lines in China - e.g. is it the Beijing-Shanghai Railway or the Jinghu Railway? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Plebiscyty zyczliwosci i niecheci (need PL>EN)
This is from the title of an article by Janusz Korczak and Ada Poznanski, published in 1934 in a journal, Polskie Archiwum Psychologii, about a survey done on the socializing of  among institutionalized children. (N.B. redacted to improve the description.) I gather it refers to an opinion poll or survey about affinity vs. antipathy. How would this best be translated into English? -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 13:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Polish. But Google translate gives "plebiscites of kindness and dislike". Plebiscyty is obviously the plural of plebiscite, or "survey".  Zyczliwosci and niecheci seem to be in the genitive ("of") case.  The word i is simply "and".  The word nechciem is "I dislike" in my dialect, so niecheci would seem to be "of dislike" or "of not liking".  From context your "survey [of] affinity [and] antipathy" seems spot on.  But you might try a Polish help desk page. μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Would "Survey of likes and dislikes" be a suitable idiomatic English translation? AlexTiefling (talk) 08:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Alex, though for now I'm sticking with the provisional translation I noted above. I'm getting more familiar with the opus, and just revised the wording of my query from "...the socializing of..." to what seems more likely: "...socializing among..." - e.g. aquerying the study subjects "With whom do you [not] like to play? Whom do you [not] trust with your confidences?", etc. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)''
 * I agree with Deborahjay's translation (except that, as μηδείς noted, plebiscyty is plural, so that would be "surveys"). The English words "likes" and "dislikes" may refer to inanimate objects, but the Polish życzliwość can only be used when talking about relations between people. Życzliwość derives from the adjective życzliwy, "well-wishing", which in turn comes from the verb życzyć, "to wish". Oh, and here's the full title with Polish diacritics, in case you need to copy and paste it somewhere: Plebiscyty życzliwości i niechęci. — Kpalion(talk) 13:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the "likes and dislikes" is a case where Google Translate and familiarity with marketing surveys will get you in trouble. μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Why do the Republic and People's Republic of China use different terms for Republic?
I've always wondered what the significance was of the Republic of China being The Mínguó of China, while the People's Republic of China is The (Rénmín) People's Gònghéguó of China. Which means that the PRC and ROC use different terms for the word Republic, and I have wondered what the significance of that is.

The transliteration of 中华人民共和国 People's Republic of China is Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó. While for the 中華民國 Republic of China it is Zhōnghuá Mínguó. Why isn't the PRC called the Zhōnghuá Rénmín Mínguó or vice versa?

In no other language is the word Republic different in a People's Republic as opposed to a regular Republic.

What is the significance of Mínguó vs Gònghéguó? --Gary123 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that have the character 民 occurring twice in a row? -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That is not a problem in Chinese and happens quite often. In any case, lots of countries are called 'Democratic Republic of [blah blah]' even though 'democratic' and 'republic' mean exactly the same thing. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It does? The UK would be surprised to find that their government was a Republic, or that it was not Democratically elected.  The terms do not coincide.  -- Jayron  32  19:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I am sure we would be, having a pretty reliable voting system. Do you have references for this? As far as I know, it's a constitutional monarchy. See Politics of the United Kingdom. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You appear to have misread or misunderstood Jayron's response. You claimed that "democracy" and "republic" were the same thing. Jayron said that the UK is a democracy but not a republic. You reply that it is a constitutional monarchy with a voting system, which appears to me to be nothing more than a restatement of Jayron's response. What do you mean? Marnanel (talk) 09:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * According to my Chinese wife, Mínguó and Gònghéguó were simply synonyms. The Nationalists had to pick one of them for their name, so they (presumably randomly) picked one; then the Communists needed one for their name, so to set themselves apart they picked the other synonym (and added People's to it). Duoduoduo (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That is true to the extent that the Communists wished to pick a different name to differentiate themselves from the Republican government, but there is a historical nuance to it - by 1949 very few people were using "minguo" as a general term to denote a republican system of government, whereas in 1911 such usage was much more commonplace. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Minguo means "People's Country" and hence 'Republic'. "Gongheguo" means 'Country [of People Working] Together' and hence 'People's Republic' - essentially a more communist sounding name. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Minguo" is a more literal translation of "republic" drawing on its Latin roots, whereas "Gongheguo" at its root borrows the ancient Chinese institution of the "Gonghe", which on Wikipedia we seem to be calling the "Gonghe Regency".
 * The two translations had parallel developments: the historical Roman republic, for example, was always called "gonghe", even when the modern political system was called "minguo". In the 20th century the former gradually fell out of favour as the name of the political system. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 共和国 is not more 'Communist sounding' than ‘民国’, the two terms have historical origins as pointed out by PalaceGuard. It is the 中华人民 that makes the [Chinese] 'People's Republic' the 'People's Republic'. Moreover, you might be interested to know that 共和 is the same word used to translate Republican Party, i.e., 共和党. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not just PRC/ROC. North Korea (DPRK)/ South Korea (ROK) have exactly the same difference, 共和国 vs. 民国, in the word for "republic". DPRK is 朝鲜民主主义人民共和国; ROK is 大喊韩国. （Incidentally, they use different words for "Korea" as well, 朝鲜 vs. (大)喊). -- Vmenkov (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Vemnkov, 大喊 is "big shout". The Chinese characters for the Korean "Daehan", as used in "Republic of Korea", is 大韩. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 民国 was a Chinese translation of Republic and 共和国 was a Japanese translation. As the Japanese terms of Western concepts and things (translated or coined in Meiji period; see Wasei-kango) spread to other Sinosphere countries, 共和国 replaced 民国. The names of ROC the ROK (ROK's name comes from Provisional Government of Republic of Korea) were establishd in 1912 and 1919 respectively while PRC and DPRK were establishd after the Second World War. --Kusunose 04:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Additionally, 人民 was also a Japanese translation of people. Oda Mari (talk) 09:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

While it may be true that "in no other language is the word Republic different in a People's Republic as opposed to a regular Republic", there are other languages which call republics different names depending on the context. English has republic and commonwealth; Polish has republika and rzeczpospolita. — Kpalion(talk) 13:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The word for "Republic" in Chinese does not differ from the word for "Republic" in "People's Republic", there are just two words that mean "Republic". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic and Russian help
How do you say "Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China headquarters" in Arabic and Russian?

The Russian name of the ministry is "Министерство иностранных дел Китайской Народной Республики", the Arabic name is "وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية". Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC) I don't speak Arabic but if the UN HQ is called مقر الأمم المتحدة, most probably the Chinese MFA's HQ is مقر وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية. Though maybe the article al- before "ministry" الوزارة is needed in this case, but I'm not sure.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Штаб-квартира like ru:Штаб-квартира ООН which officially are Центральные Учреждения ООН. Russian MFA's HQ are called Центральный аппарат МИД России. So Центральный аппарат Министерства иностранных дел Китайской Народной Республики may be the best variant. Other alternatives are Центральный/Главный/Головной офис/учреждения/управление, it's difficult to choose.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Though I'm still in doubt, maybe I've made a mistake. Центральный аппарат is more about internal structure. Of course it's possible to call both the head body and the building where this body is sitting with one word (a kind of metonymy). I've not found an English name for the main building of the Russian MFA. But speaking about a building, Центральное/Главное здание/офис is more appropriate.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Lyuboslov: The first item of a ʼiḍāfa construction can take neither the article "al-" nor nunation. Therefore, I'd think مقر وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية is correct. --Theurgist (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing but I've spoken not about the very first noun maqarr "seat", but about the second wizaarat "ministry". §12.4 of "Arabic. An Essential Grammar" (2007) says that it (the second) may take the article. But §12.9 says that in a complex idaafa only the last word can take the article. I wonder why then the translation of the Chinese MFA has four articles.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's two sentences in construct state linked by "li-" ("in"). There are only three "al-" articles. In the second sentence the last word is an adjective describing China, so they both get the definite article. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, I haven't noticed the absence of alif. Indeed, al- before wizaarat is not needed. Thanks!--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Любослов Езыкин -- when you see a long sequence of "al-" prefixed words in Arabic, it's usually adjectives and/or appositional forms. In an A-al-B idaafa construction, an al-prefixed adjective following it can modify either A or B (though the meaning or the number/gender form used will often exclude one of the two as the modified, leaving no ambiguity). AnonMoos (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Clarifying theoretical matter: A complex idaafa is an idaafa where either the first or the second item is itself an idaafa. That's why only the last word in a complex idaafa can take the article. --Theurgist (talk) 02:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * In A-B-al-C, I think that [A-[B-al-C]] is the usual interpretation, and anything else would be out of the ordinary. However, there are some complications to allow a conjoined phrase (A-and-B) to appear as the first member of an idaafa... AnonMoos (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, I think A-B]-al-C] can occur as an expression like غرفة نوم الطفل "(the) child's bedroom", but it is indeed very much rarer than the usual [A-[B-al-C. --Theurgist (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! For Commons:Category:International relations of China I would like to know the Russian and Arabic for "International relations of the People's Republic of China - For relations with Taiwan (Republic of China), see category:Cross-Strait relations". - There are no articles on the Arabic and Russian wikipedias about "International relations of China" or about "Cross strait relations" so I don't have a reference for that. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Also, Commons:中华人民共和国 needs an Arabic description - I'm surprised it doesn't yet have one already WhisperToMe (talk) 13:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Added.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! All I need is the Arabic :) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * العلاقات الدولية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية Wrad (talk) 04:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the first part! All I need now is the note on Taiwan in Arabic WhisperToMe (talk) 12:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Added. Lesgles (talk) 20:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! How do you say "For relations with Taiwan (Republic of China), see category:Cross-Strait relations" in Arabic? WhisperToMe (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Asian names
When something in English refers to a Japanese person, their name is generally reversed to the Western order (e.g. Hideki Tojo), but Chinese names are usually left with the family name first (e.g. Mao Zedong). Why is this? --128.42.153.5 (talk) 22:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Until other respondents manage to give you satisfactory input, you might want to take a look at the #Name order section of the Personal name article. --Theurgist (talk) 23:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Japanese name and Chinese name tell some of the story WhisperToMe (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * As an aside, it is also interesting that Chinese people also give themselves 'Western' names (and sometimes silly ones, like 'Apple' and 'Pizza'), but when they use them, the surname comes after it, instead. Japanese people don't use Western names. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Kage, that's a bit of an unwarranted generalisation. I just wrote an email to a Japanese "Kevin" in Japan a few minutes ago. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I have met half-Chinese/half-Japanese people in Japan, and they tend to give themselves English names. This also happens a bit in South Korea. I lived in Japan for ten years, and never once met a fully ethnically Japanese person with a western name. The only two Kevins I have ever met in my entire life were from Korea and Hong Kong, by the way. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * In my experience of dealing with Japanese people who are involved in international business, adopting a Western name is not unheard of. I can't speak for your experiences, but it may just be that your experiences involve more frequently dealing with people whose lines of work do not bring them into contact with English speakers. As for "Kevin", the majority of "Kevins" I know are from English speaking countries like Australia or the US. Apart from the Japanese example I referred to, I can't think of any other "Kevins" who live in an Asian country. I'm not sure the density of "Kevins" proves anything. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, considering my work there involved either translating or teaching English (to children and adults - many of which adults were business people who needed it for work), I would be very, very surprised if not a single one of them had any contact with English speakers besides myself, because this would make both of my jobs completely pointless. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, for some reason I have come across Japanese people who adopt English names and you, despite your considerably more extensive experience in the country itself, have not. If it is not because of some demographic selection bias in the people we respectively encounter, then I am at a loss to explain the difference. My point however was that it does happen. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 19:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because given names aren't really used independently in Chinese. General Tojo's friends and relatives probably called him Hideki in private, but this doesn't really happen in Chinese; even your husband/wife will use your full name (it's also common to use pet names or terms of endearment, but first-name-on-its-own is very uncommon compared to English or Japanese).
 * So, for Japanese it's just a case of putting two words in a different order (which wouldn't be a big deal to Japanese people speaking English, as the two languages have quite different word order anyway), while in Chinese you've got the extra step of splitting a name apart to give a given-name-on-its-own portion that isn't used anywhere else. This is probably also part of the reason why when Chinese people have to use a "first name" they often choose an unrelated English name rather than using the given portion of their own name.
 * 220.231.34.3 (talk) 10:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's more because they originally believed Westerners couldn't pronounce their names properly, and then the fashion just took off like a YouTube viral video. When I lived in China I was given a Chinese name twice. One completely unrelated to my real name, and another which was similar to my real name, depending on what dialect you said it in. I ended up using one of them in Japan for the banks, because my real name in katakana wouldn't fit on the ridiculously small seal I had to use (because in those days they wouldn't allow signatures, which was silly, because you can buy a seal in a shop - they are mass-produced - and pretend to be anyone. You can't buy a signature). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:43, 25 October 2012 (UTC)