Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 23

= October 23 =

Mandarin in the Onion
There is an article today in The Onion that has a passage written in Chinese, but it's an image so I can't just drop the copypasta into Google Translate. Is there anybody here that can translate it? Link. Thanks —Akrabbimtalk 03:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I seem to be able to cut-and paste the following text, though I don't know what it means (other than that 中国 is "China", of course): AnonMoos (talk) 07:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

中国的领导我毫不含糊地向你们肯定当我做了总统我定会确保中国遵守国际贸易规则你们国家长久以来用操纵汇率让你们自己的制造业受益打击我们美国的制造业这是不公平的我的政府不会接受中国这样的行为 当我进白宫的第天我就会把中国列入率操纵国这是对你们的警告
 * I didn't read the article, so not sure of the context, I am guessing it's meant to be Romney's "true" message to the Chinese government? In any case, my translation, punctuation (or lack thereof) exactly as per your text:
 * "Chinese leaders, I without any ambiguity whatsoever confirm to you, when I become President I will ensure China obeys international trade rules. Your country for a long time used exchange rate manipulation to benefit your own manufacutring industry, and suppress we America's manufacturing industry, this is unfair! My government will not accept such conduct by China. On the first day when I enter the White House I will list China as an 'exchange rate manipulating country'. This is a warning to you."
 * --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * (Ed) - I did click into the link and have amended the above in light of the punctuation on that page which did not carry through with your paste. They seem to have used the English full stop (.) but I assume they meant the Chinese equivalent (. ) --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I wish I were going
The following has bugged me for years: In the Simpsons episode "Bart on the Road", Bart is planning a road trip, and in order to get away he lies and says that he's going to a "National Grammar Rodeo" in Canada. Upon hearing this, Marge says "The National Grammar Rodeo? I wish I were going. Oh wait, wait – I mean, I wish I was going. Is that right, Bart?"

Well, which is it? "I wish I were going" or "I wish I was going"? Gabbe (talk) 11:01, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Please see, four questions above this. --ColinFine (talk) 11:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * So, "I wish I were going" because it's subjunctive? Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * More like "I wish I were going" because she isn't. Bielle (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The simple test is, can you add (the appropriate equivalent of) "but I'm not"? If sou, use were, it's subjunctive. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But as was pointed out up there, plenty of English speakers use the "I were" construction rarely or never. --ColinFine (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I even know a guy who never brushes his teeth. μηδείς (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The joke is that she incorrectly corrects herself. There is another episode where someone says "I saw her, that is to say I seen her". Adam Bishop (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's Lenny (Simpsons) who says it, and the phenomenon is hypercorrection (LOL). μηδείς (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ehum, actually it's the gravedigger in "Mother Simpson"... Gabbe (talk) 09:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I suspect it's Lenny's voice. μηδείς (talk) 02:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

French translation: Eteroa
I am using google translate to understand a book I am reading. There is a passage that I can't seem to understand with google translate. " En ce temps-là, le roi Paa a Teuruarii III, devenu vieux, pensait à rentrer chez lui, dans sa terre natale de Huahine. Et quand se présenta un navire, il le prit et s'en alla à Huahine. Peu de temps après son arrivée sur sa terre natale, la mort le prit. " which according to google translate is "In that time, the king was Paa Teuruarii III, grown old, believed him home in his native Huahine. And when a ship appeared, he took it and went to Huahine. Shortly after his arrival in his homeland, death took him." What does the author mean exactly when he said "believed him home in his native Huahine"?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "In that time, King Paa a Teuruarii III, grown old, was thinking of returning home to his native land of Huahine." The rest of the translation is correct. Lesgles (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Google is simply wrong here: rentrer means "go home" it can't mean "be at home". --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks!--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Also "C'est durant leur règne à eux deux que fut changée la loi établissant la peine de mort, Va'a Tai 'Aru, en un bannissement sur la petite île de Maria, et non en un bannissement en mer."/ "It was during their reign between them that was changed the law establishing the death penalty, Va'a Tai Aru, a ban on the small island of Maria, not a ban at sea " doesn't make sense to me. Did they change the law to include a death penalty, a exile to the island of Maria and not a exile to sea or did they changed the law that established the death penalty (ie. abolished it) and made crime punishable by exile instead? What exactly does the "not a ban at sea" part even mean? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "It was during their joint reign that the law establishing the death penalty, Va'a Tai 'Aru, was changed to a banishment on the small island of Maria, and not to a banishment at sea." My guess is that the author is using "banishment/exile at/in the sea" figuratively to refer to the death penalty, which perhaps involved drowning at sea. Lesgles (talk) 20:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ban used to mean "banishment" in English, but they have since diverged; but apparently bannissement covers both. --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

More Chinese and Uighur questions
In File:Military Museum of Xinjiang signboard in Uyghur-Mandarin.jpg I have "新疆兵团军垦博物馆" - Is that correct? What are the other characters in the background? And what is the Uighur text? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Uyghur says shinjang bingtüen herbiyler boz yer özleshtürüsh muzey. If I'm not mistaken it means something like "Museum about how the soldiers from the Xianjiang military corps cultivated wild lands". I hope somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:34, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the romanization! What is the Uighur text typed in? I want to post it in the image description WhisperToMe (talk) 03:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * شىنجاڭ بىڭتۈەن ھەربىيلەر بوز يەر ئۆزلەشتۈرۈش مۇزىي
 * I'm slightly mistaken: the last word should be transliterated as "muziy".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I updated the description of File:Military Museum of Xinjiang signboard in Uyghur-Mandarin.jpg. Would the name of the museum be written in the same way in Arabic as in Uighur, or would it be written differently? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be translated in Arabic, of course, but this task is too difficult for me. :) I'm sure there is a lot of people who know Chinese and Arabic. It can be also possible to translate in a row Chinese > English > Arabic.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Your transcription is correct. The slogan at the back says "走进军垦历史 凝聚民族精神 传承军垦文化". If it is helpful, this says something ike "Enter military-cultivation history; coalesce national spirit; pass on/inherit military-cultivation culture". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, PalaceGuard! I put it in the annotations WhisperToMe (talk) 00:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

volume, autrefois
Can you turn up the volume of the file File:Fr-Normandie-Marseille.ogg please ? Fête (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Such requests should be made at the Help Desk, not here. μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * (1) Download audacity from here. Works on Windows, Linux, Mac. (2) Select "Effect" | "Normalize. (3) Save as .ogg. (4) For the benefit of fellow wikipedians, upload the improved file. If you need a tutorial, search for audacity normalize volume on Youtube, or RTFM. If you run into problems, ask for help at the computing reference desk, WP:RD/C. --NorwegianBluetalk 19:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of -ing
Why does Wiktionary say that -ing is pronounced -ɪŋ? I've always pronounced it -iŋ. --168.7.230.175 (talk) 00:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's ood. Are you from somewhere other than Texas? μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Ood? I don't know nuffink about that.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  00:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Ood? We have an article... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * We seem to have a lot of ood questions that geolocate to Rice University. As for /iŋ/, I find /in/ and /im/ require no especial effort, but /iŋ/ is oodly hard to say. μηδείς (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm actually from Missouri. I'm sure that I'm saying /iŋ/ rather than /ɪŋ/ because I can say /ɪŋ/ and it sounds and feels very different from /iŋ/. --128.42.218.93 (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So, you're saying that the words "bing" and "bean" have the same vowel sound in your dialect? Interesting.-- Jayron  32  05:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I read it that he pronounces "bing" and "being" differently, as I think most people do, but the IPA is suggesting they'd be pronounced the same. I agree that the IPA seems to be in error.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  05:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You're both right. I pronounce "bing" as [biŋ], "bean" as [bin], and "being" as [bijiŋ]. --168.7.238.140 (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? Wouldn't the former be pronounced (via IPA) /bɪŋ/ and the latter /biːɪŋ/?  I don't think IPA would make it hard to distinguish between the two.  -- Jayron  32  05:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * That's the IP's only entry so far, but I wonder if he pronounces his home state "Missour-ee" or "Missour-uh". There's a significant population using each pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but that's a vowel reduction/schwa issue, which is something different entirely (like the difference between pronouncing "the" as "THUH" or "THEE") -- Jayron  32  05:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If "ɪŋ" is intended to rhyme with "eeng", that's not correct, except maybe in some parts of the south. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * [iŋ], or "eeng", is common in California English. Lesgles (talk) 03:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll have to see a good ref or hear a good clip before I believe this. I have never heard it. And/i/ has an offglide which I find impossible to imagine as an actual [ijŋ]. μηδείς (talk) 03:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is one reference with some short clips; here is a more in-depth study, which considers only Southern Californian. Lesgles (talk) 05:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that certainly is theenk. I'd still like to hear -eeng for the participle though. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand the sound of "i" in the English suffix "ing" to be a falling diphthong comprising a near-close near-front unrounded vowel [ɪ] followed by a close front unrounded vowel [i].
 * —Wavelength (talk) 03:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the most common accent to apply to -ing is to drop the g: "Walkin' the walk and talkin' the talk". StuRat (talk) 04:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it's pronounced walk-in, not walk-een, expect maybe in some isolated regions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Walk-een" etc. is more common before a pause. I've heard that kind of pronunciation in lists, e.g. "I like hike-een, swim-een, horseback ride-een … lots of stuff." I've heard Tim Allen pronounce "-ing" this way, for example.--Cam (talk) 12:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but having looked at the wiktionary page wikt:-ing, it is significant that the transcription is /ɪŋ/, note virgules. So I suspect whoever the linguist was who made this transcription meant to convey that the underlying phoneme, s/he believed, is /ɪ/, to be realized according to however a speaker's dialect realizes /ɪ/ in such a context. In other words, you are all correct. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 04:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If that miniature capital "I" refers to a normal short "i" rather than a long "e" sound, that would work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * /ɪ/ is the vowel in strip. /i/ is the vowel in Streep (as in I would not be keen to see Meryl Streep strip.) . I'm not sure what vowel length has to do with anything. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 22:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This nomenclature may be before your time: "Long" vowels are pronounced like their names, while "short" vowels are not. Examples: make vs. mack, me vs. met, bike vs. Bic, go vs. got, duke vs. duck. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I do vaguely remember being taught something like that in elementary school! Good times :) I suppose I was "made to forget" when I took linguistics - in linguistics a long vowel is just a vowel that is held (e.g., the e in bet=short, bed=long), so while the vast majority of occurrences of /i/ in English are realized as [iː] (the colon denotes the lengthening), the vowel in -ing clearly is not, which was the source of my confusion. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 02:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The reason for that peculiar nomenclature of English vowels, of course, is that it refers to the lengths of vowels before the Great Vowel Shift. —Tamfang (talk) 04:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Do we have a source for that?(Not that I really doubt it.) In any case, traditionally (RP/GenAm) all the "short vowels" are short, and the long vowels diphthongs. μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

-iŋg (a nasal "ee" followed by a clearly pronounced hard "g') is the common pronuciation used in words of English origin in Polish. — Kpalion(talk) 10:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, when I say "bing", I use a vowel that is neither the vowel of "bin" nor the vowel of "bean", but one that's about halfway between them. Since /i/ and /ɪ/ don't contrast before /ŋ/, it doesn't really matter which phoneme you assign the sound to. Angr (talk) 18:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)