Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 26

= October 26 =

German "Zart oder hart" in other languages
The rhyming German words zart (gentle, tender et al.) and hart (hard, tough et al.) are often used as a pair to describe different styles of having sex ("Do you want it zart or hart?"). Are there similar expressions in other languages, especially in English, and preferably rhyming?--KnightMove (talk) 05:29, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * A similar English pairing uses alliteration instead of rhyming "Naughty or Nice". You could ask "Do you want it naughty or nice" and it would (idiomatically) have the same meaning and effect of the German phrase.  -- Jayron  32  05:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, as a German I have never heard someone in real life talk about having "zart" sex. AFAIK, the pair zart/hart is almost exclusively used in the BDSM-scene. Lectonar (talk) 08:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think "zärtlich" or "lieb" are used, at least where I live. Lectonar (talk) 08:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Simple Google search proves the expression not to be restricted to the BDSM scene. --KnightMove (talk) 06:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What's more, it's definitely not restricted only to sex:"Die Harte und der Zarte" --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 22:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Help with Cantonese transliteration
Hi all,

Currently looking at 陸輝, who appears to a senior pastor at Bethel Bible Seminary in Hong Kong and an awardee of degrees in Divinity from the London campus of Westminster Theological Seminary. Could look up refs in English, but have no clue what transliteration to look for. The predominant Chinese in HK, to the best of my knowledge, is Cantonese. My head a splode trying to look up the Barnett–Chao,Yale, Jyutping and so on. Your thoughts and advice?

--Shirt58 (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I suspect you are looking for Luk Fai. See also this citation.  Marco polo (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Pharyngeal stops
Why are pharyngeal stops marked as "impossible" in our IPA consonant chart? The voiceless one was previously marked as possible. (And what about voiced epiglottal stops?) Double sharp(talk) 11:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Impossible sounds too definite, people can rise to the challenge and make all sorts of weird sounds. Perhaps "not occurring in any known language" would be better. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Then shouldn't the palatal trill be grey as well? I don't think it occurs in any known language, and, while probably not impossible, it seems very difficult.Double sharp (talk) 12:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I conducted my own research (i.e. attempted to produce a pharyngeal stop). What I came up with was not so much a speech sound as a gagging noise/sensation. If most people would have the same results if the attempted such a sound, that would explain why there is no (phonemic) pharyngeal stop in any known language. szyslak  ( t ) 14:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Another issue is that pharyngeal stops might be difficult for listeners to distinguish from glottal stops, which are easier to produce. That could explain why they don't occur.  Marco polo (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

How would you describe cough and sneeze sounds phonetically?
I think that the cough sound is aspirated glottal stop.

Please do the following:
 * 1) Spell out each sound in English.
 * 2) Describe phonetic properties of each sound (place and manner of articulation, voiced/voiceless, aspiration, palatalisation, ...)
 * --183.81.44.75 (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Coughs and sneezes are not composed of speech sounds, and so it probably isn't reliably possible to describe them with IPA or other phonetic classifications. You'd do as good to classify farts.  -- Jayron  32  16:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The answer to question one is easy enough - Achoo and Ahem respectively. -Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * In one of Yuenren Chao's books he also compares an aspirated glottal stop ʔʰ to a cough, but it's a very slight cough at best... AnonMoos(talk) 20:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd think you're have to define unique forms of pulmonic airstream to describe them in relation to the diaphragm's actions. So while a normal pulmonic consonant would use, say "smooth breath," coughing would use "spasmed breath."  And there would be tons of allophony/free variation, i.e. you can cough through your nose or mouth or both, there can be a rounding of the mouth, different positions of the tongue, etc.  Particularly strong sneezes may have nareal friction but may also be entirely oral.  And so on.  In effect, I'll parrot that it's not possible, or at least not useful, to describe them phonetically.  Lsfreak (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The cough article states: "The cough reflex consists of three phases: an inhalation, a forced exhalation against a closed glottis, and a violent release of air from the lungs following opening of the glottis, usually accompanied by a distinctive sound." This description sounds like a strongly aspirated glottal stop.Double sharp (talk) 13:15, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

French treaties translations
Can anybody help write out these two treaties File:Procès-verbal de l'établissement du Protectorat de la France sur l'île Rurutu.jpg andFile:Procès-verbal de l'établissement du Protectorat de la France sur l'île Rimatara et dépendances.jpg with the French accents and proper punctuation (Google book plain text just gives me gibberish) and then translate into English?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You may want to work through Wikisource on this one. That project is specifically designed to publish public-domain sources in digital form, and people that work there may be more skilled in reading and digitizing print sources into text online, and you also may be able to find translators that work in the field.  -- Jayron  32  18:30, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there a user or a forum/help desk that can help me with that?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Requests_for_assistance or maybe http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium  There's also an IRC channel noted there.  -- Jayron  32  23:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I've often found even bad OCRs to be better than doing everything myself; they'll get some words exactly correct and most words at least partially correct, so you might find it somewhat easier to start off with the OCR and make a pile of corrections. Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Pronounciation of Samo
Could someone please provide the IPA for Samo (with a link to whichever language's IPA chart you're using)? Need it for proper translation of the name forhi:स्लोवाकिया. Thanks and regards--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems that we don't have any experts in Old Frankish, but it's almost certainly something like [saːmo], so सामो, I guess? Lesgles (talk) 16:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)