Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 3

= October 3 =

Getting oneself sliced
A woman on my facebook feed recently posted that she was going into hospital to "get myself sliced". I don't know what she meant and I think it's a bit rude to ask, so I'd be grateful for any thoughts. Something gynaecological, perhaps? --Bluegrouper (talk) 09:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a generic description of surgery to me, where "slicing" means cutting, which is part of most surgeries. StuRat (talk) 09:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed - a quick Google brought up a US theatrical event called SLICED AND DICED: THE SURGERY SHOW. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * A variation on the old expression "going under the knife". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, the Icelandic word for "surgery" is uppskurður (literally, "up-cutting"). Gabbe (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Danish social dancing pleasantries
I will be doing some social dancing (contra dance) in Denmark, and I would like to be able to ask someone to dance and thank them afterwards. In English, I would usually say: So far I have come up with these Danish translations: Are these correct and socially appropriate? (I'm male if that makes any difference.)
 * Would you like to dance?
 * Thank you. That was delightful.
 * Vil du danse?
 * Tak. Det var dejligt.

Tak -- Rotcaeroib (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * They're both correct and completely appropriate. The Vil du danse? phrase is slightly informal ("Do you want to dance?"). If you want to be more formal and old-fashioned you could say Må jeg bede om denne dans? ("May I have this dance?"). But I see nothing wrong with the translations you have. Gabbe (talk) 21:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your quick and helpful response! Det var dejligt. :) Rotcaeroib (talk) 15:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Tickle me pink
"Kitzler", for those unaccustomed to foreign tongues, is the German term for clitoris. Translated verbatim it means "tickler", a rather apt term for this poorly accessible delicacy. Pondering the comparative mysteries of the two languages, English and German, I compared the "sex based" terms of the two languages (German in italics):

Eg: Penis = Glied / n, vagina = Scheide / f, testicles = Hoden / m, etc. It seems to me that in English such terms are largely derived from Latin whilst German seems to use Germanic terms (the Latin alternatives exist in German). Where English uses non-Latin terms, these range from colloquial to vulgar and would hardly be used in the proximity of royals. Of course, there are exceptions (foreskin = Vorhaut / f, etc) where Anglo-Saxon terms are perfectly acceptable. The simple question: Is there (apart from Victorian morality) any reason for the mysterious extinction of sex-oriented terms of Anglo-Saxon origin and for their replacement with medical euphemisms? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain that it isn't necessarily medical euphemisms, it is the influence of Norman French on English. English is (very broadly and approximately) a French vocabulary laid over an un-gendered Germanic base., from the influence of Norman French after the Norman Conquest.  Consider that the French words for the terms, penis = pénis, vagina = vagin, testicles = testicules, clitoris = clitoris etc. closely match the English ones.  And no one has ever accused the French of having prudish "Victorian morality".  These are simply the straightforward, non-vulgar words taken almost directly from the French, not necessarily from Latin medical terms.  -- Jayron  32  01:41, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you just say English is the transvestite child of a Teutonic eunuch and a violent Frenchman named Norm? μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Broadly speaking. -- Jayron  32  04:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Jayron's hunch is wrong on this occasion. None of the English or French terms mentioned were in use at the time of the Norman Conquest. Both series come in to medical use from Latin much later, and only from there into the colloquial language. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is a brief history of medical language, suggesting that since early medical texts were written in Latin, and doctors would naturally write in Latin, it was an obvious step to use Latin terms for medical items. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So, then, I guess my question would be if it went Latin --> French --> English or if it went Latin --> French and Latin --> English in parallel. -- Jayron  32  13:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Answering my own question: Etymonline dates Vagina and Penis from the 1670s-1680s and indicates that they did likely enter the language as medical jargon. Clitoris and Testicles were invented in Latin in 1610, and entered English directly from there.  So, it was pre-Victorian that these terms were used, but looks like I was completely wrong.  It looks as though they all entered English through Latin, and some of the terms were rather late inventions in Latin as well.  -- Jayron  32  13:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * However, the idea of Latin or Romance words as "high speech" comes as you say, from Norman French being the language of the elite. English Words: History and Structure By Robert Stockwell, Donka Minkova; "...according to one estimate the number of French words adopted during the Middle English period was slightly over 10,000. Of these, about 75 per cent have survived and are still used in present-day English" Alansplodge (talk) 21:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Medicine is an area where English differs from the other Germanic languages, in that English is far more likely to use Latin loanwords, whereas the other Germanic languages more often use non-Latin terms. To take further examples, Swedish has tandläkare ("dentist"; but literally "tooth-healer"), hudläkare ("dermatologist"; "skin-healer"), bukspottkörtel ("pancreas"; "stomach-spit-gland"). Danish has spiserør ("oesophagus"; "food-pipe"). Icelandic has uppskurður ("surgery"; "up-cutting"). Dutch has eierstok ("ovaries"; "egg-stocks"). And so on... Gabbe (talk) 06:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a conlang called Anglish, which aims to write English using only Germanic-derived words. For example: "When in the Fare of mennishly belimps, it becomes needful for one Leed to formelt the mootly bends which have limpledged them with another, and to nim among the mights of the earth, the sunderly and even standing which the Laws of Ykind and of Ykind's God befeal them, a thewly eighting to the weens of mankind tharf that they should abeed the Andwork which fordrive them to the sundering." (From the introduction to the onemood Forthspell of the Selfdom of the thirteen gathertang Rikes of Markland. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That was Jefferson's first draft. He feared that if he wrote it in normal English, it might cause trouble. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * English often has Germanic and Romance words for the same thing, the former being used in everyday speech and the later for more formal uses. An example is graveyard and cemetary. English has perfectly good Germanic words for the external sexual apparatus, but their use is considered vulgar in many circles, whereas the use of the Romance term is considered more acceptable. Alansplodge (talk) 08:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's the same in Norwegian: 'Penis' and 'Vagina' are the formal, neutral words for the sexual organs, whereas the 'native Norwegian' words (tiss, pikk, fitte, etc.) are considered rude, or, at the very least, not appropriate in all contexts. However, when it comes to the rest of the body, as Gabbe mentions, the Norwegian terms are perfectly fine, and the Latin ones are not used. V85 (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It has occurred to me that a rather dated euphemism for foul language in the UK and apparently the US is "Anglo-Saxon". An example is here Eyewitnesses to the Indian Wars, 1865-1890 - an army officer is trying to get reinforcements during a battle; "After some delay and a vigorous use of plain Anglo-Saxon, he succeeded in getting M Troop sent over...". In other words, "after some delay and a lot of swearing". More decorous language is expected to have a lot of Latin-based words in it. Alansplodge (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting in this context that no Irish person or of Irish heritage has ever been recorded as swearing. Ever. We're above all that shit.  Which is why these fecking rude words are described as "Anglo-Saxon" and not "Anglo-Celtic".  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, if a Londoner lets slip a swearword at an inappropriate moment, he/she will say "Oh, pardon my French" (ie please excuse my bad language). I doubt that this comes from any deep study of linguistics however. As for Australians, they have such a reputation in the UK for swearing, that a 1990s advertising campaign for a brand of Queensland lager ran with "Australians wouldn't give a XXXX for anything else!" Alansplodge (talk) 21:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * | Australians are famous for it in Australia.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That particular ad went over like a lead balloon in Oz. It attracted criticism from many quarters. Some pretended it was about the crude language.  But the real problems were that (a) it wasn't crude enough and (b) it's unidiomatic.  We do say "Bloody hell!", but almost always as an expletive by itself, not as part of a more complex sentence.  We're much more likely to say "Where the hell are you?" or even "Where the fuck are you?", when talking to someone other than one's mother or the bishop.  "Where the bloody hell are you" confuses two idioms, sounds confected, and is confected.  The whole thing was misconceived, by someone with a tin ear.  Or a committee.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Where the bloody hell are you" is completely natural in British English. 86.181.171.180 (talk) 19:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well Wiktionary doesn't have a problem with it. "Interjection (UK, Australian, New Zealand, mildly vulgar) placed before a verb to add emphasis to a sentence. What the bloody hell are you doing here?" Alansplodge (talk) 00:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And Exhibit B, a learned discourse from Griffith University, Queensland; Griffith Working Papers in Pragmatics and Intercultural Communication (2008) - “Where the bloody hell are you?”: Bloody hell and (im)politeness in Australian English. Conclusion - "In short, using the words ‘the bloody hell’ in Australia is usually not impolite in everyday conversation. In addition, most Australians are not offended when they hear them..." The defence rests its case m'Lud. Alansplodge (talk) 00:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I took over a class of unruly 7 year olds in Japan from an Australian teacher who couldn't handle them, and they kept saying "Bloody hell" all the time. I guess he'd been saying it a lot in class. So, while I was teaching phonics, I taught them to say "That does my head in!" in a Scouse accent. When the next teacher (an American) took over the class, he was totally bewildered as to what they were on about, and kept saying "WTF?", so I guess they learned a new phrase from him.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  05:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Unruly Japanese schoolchildren? I didn't think they had that problem in Japan...
 * Got them everywhere, mate. Go to Japan, teach a class of little kids, and count how many times a day | they run up to you and punch you in the balls, shouting 'KANCHO!' At least they shout it, so you have milliseconds of forewarning of the impending attack. My way of dealing with it was to catch the kid's hands, and twist him/her round and use the kid as a human shield against further attacks. One of my American mates would just pick them up during the attack and give them a slobbery kiss. They wouldn't go near him after a while. We all had our own techniques for defence.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * WHAAAE; see Kancho. Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Interestingly Gabbe's "tandläkare ("dentist"; but literally "tooth-healer"), hudläkare ("dermatologist"; "skin-healer")" would literally be "tooth-leech" and "hide-leech" in English. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * leech n. 3. Archaic A physician. Alansplodge (talk) 12:45, 5 October 2012 (UTC)