Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 9

= October 9 =

Alumni of Nobel Laureates
Do these template titles make sense: Template:Alumni of Nobel Laureates from Chinese Universities, Template:Alumni of Nobel Laureates from Taiwan's Universities. I know what the templates are for but think "Alumni of" should be removed. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * They don't make sense to me. Could it mean "Nobel laureates who are alumni of Chinese/Tawianese Universities"? --Trovatore (talk) 00:52, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Think it should be "Chinese universities which are alma maters of Nobel laureates" based on the template contents... AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yikes, please change that "which" to "that". --Trovatore (talk) 01:19, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * On what grounds? Other than arbitrary prescriptivism, I mean. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Not at all. These 3 statements all mean different things:
 * The cat, which ate the rat, is satisfied.
 * = The cat is satisfied + the cat ate the rat
 * The cat that ate the rat is satisfied.
 * = One cat is satisfied, viz. the one that ate the rat
 * The cat which ate the rat is satisfied.
 * = A poor man's version of the above.
 * But see English relative clauses for a differently nuanced view. --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  12:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Are these templates intended for the university articles or the laureates' biographies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodger67 (talk • contribs)
 * I didn't make or use them but just came by them and wondered about the odd wording. Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Alumni of Nobel Laureates from Chinese Universities and Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Alumni of Nobel Laureates from Taiwan's Universities shows they are currently only used in university articles. I haven't found similar templates for other countries or universities. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:28, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The templates list universities, with the laureates in parentheses, so I agree with AnonMoos' wording. (I'm that/which blind myself.)--Wikimedes (talk) 09:06, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

(Venezuelan) Spanish translation - "mujanches"
I have seen many Venezuelans using this word as an insult against anti-Chavistas, but I don't know what it means, and the online translators don't seem to either. --149.135.146.66 (talk) 10:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It is 'majunches', and means "Person who lacks appeal or qualities, insignificant, mediocre, says things that are not, or are not as necessary or desired; poor quality, regular".  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

garnish
Please help me. This is driving me crazy. When did they start using the word garnish for garanshee? I presume they have. It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that is bringing America'd education down. Instead of insisting that students learn and use proper language and grammer, we just change the words to make it easier. Our students need to exercise their brains and learn the correct terms. If you garnish my wages (and I surely wish that someone would) the only way to do that ais to tack a nice hefty bonus to my paycheck. It really doesn't seem all that big of a deal....except thst I hear teacher after using very poor grammer. I really don't like these teachers teaching my grandchildren anything.

What can I do to help stop this and help our leaders to see what is going wrong fwith our education system?

Thank you so much for your time.

Bonnie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.89.217.128 (talk) 23:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * To "garnishee" someone's wages is to remove some of it to pay a debt to a third party, and the employee is paid what's left over. The process is known as garnishment.  It's often done by way of a court order that's incumbent on the employer, who is required to divert a proportion of the wage to the taxation authorities or whoever is owed the money.  I'm sure some people confuse garnishee and garnish, which, as you say, means something quite different. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  00:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's hold on here. Garnish is perfectly normal to use in this situation, and is actually the older verb (1577 in the OED in this sense). Garnishee, like most -ee words (payee, etc.), was first a noun, referring to the person whose wages are garnished. It later came to be used also as a synonym of garnish (1892). Most dictionaries list both; Merriam-Webster has the main entry at garnishee, with a cross-reference from garnish, while Oxford puts the main entry under garnish. I myself have only heard of garnishing wages (though I haven't heard the word that many times in general). Lesgles (talk) 00:34, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Never heard of "garanshee" or "garnishee". Is it an American thing? Alansplodge (talk) 00:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * To "garnishee someone's wages" is well-known down here. It's probably at the same level of correctness of language as to "go guarantor" for somebody, but it has idiomatic authority; and it turns up in official places – see,.
 * It's a well-known concept in British law too. — SMUconlaw (talk) 05:09, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The concept may be well known, but I contend that the word itself is rarely or never used in the UK. See the British Government's online resource for businesses page about Pay - an overview of obligations - Making deductions which describes how employers can make deductions from an employee's wages (which seems to be what we're discussing), without ever once using the words "garnish" or "garnishee". Alansplodge (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It might be useful to link to the WP article - Garnishment, which is alas Americocentric. Garnish used to be in common usage in the UK among those people and organisations who made use of Garnishee Orders. (I had occasional dealings with this in my work life and have certainly uttered the phrase "Could we garnish his bank account?" in the past). The term is less common in the UK now due to changes in the law a decade or so ago which saw the Garnishee Order renamed as a Third Party Debt Order. The Direct.Gov site gives a brief overview of this and uses the new name Third Party Debt Order whilst this site  seems to set things out with more historical information and refers to Garnishee Orders. The link Alansplodge includes refers briefly to deductions due to court orders, and a Garnishee Order would be one of these (historically), though it tended to be used to claim money in a bank account, whereas an Attachment of Earnings Order would generally be used in England and Wales  - I believe Scotland has different means to enforce debt - to enforce deduction of money from wages to pay a debt. However I'd understand any claim on money held by a third party that belongs to or is owed to the debtor to be a type of garnishment. The garnishee is actually the third party, not the debtor himself . Valiantis (talk) 21:18, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I did provide that link in my initial response to the question. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clear answer Valiantis. Sorry Jack, I looked at that link but assumed it was Americanese, because it also included the word "paycheck". Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Garanshee" seems to be a confusion between "garnishee" and "guarantee". --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:07, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny, I always thought a garanshee was one of those evil female lawyer spirits wandering the bayous, leading poor young men to their deaths. μηδείς (talk) 05:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I used to work for our state Revenue agency. Under law, the verb is "to garnish"; the subject of the action is the "garnishee"; and the action is called "garnishment"; Wisconsin law, at least, recognizes no such verb as "to garnishee". There is not nor has there ever been such a word as "garanshee" (as noun or verb). The biggest garnishment I ever issued, if I recall correctly, was for just over US$6.1 million; the garnishee whose salary I was told to garnish was a highly-paid professional working for an institution I shall not name. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  18:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * As with many words, usage varies from place to place. Wiktionary recognises garnishee as both a noun and a verb.  The 5th definition of the verb to garnish is: (law) To warn by garnishment; to give notice to; to garnishee.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "garanshee" or "garnishee" both sound wrong to my British ears, but they do exist in the Oxford English Dictionary. I would understand the verb "garnish" to mean either the action of equipping something (especially food), or adding something to the money you receive by slightly dubious means.  As a noun I would restrict it to an item you add to your food.  Astronaut (talk) 19:40, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Astronaut, even in Britain the orders are referred to as "garnishee orders". There's no such word as garanshee - the OP made it up. Both "to garnish" and "garnishee (orders)" would be familiar in Britain to lawyers and those who work in the quasi-legal debt and credit industry. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)


 * So the answer to the OP is: they started to use "garnish" in this meaning before they started to use "garnishee". It is perfectly possible for English words to have two, three, or sixty different meanings. You are entitled to your personal preferences, but the fact that you happen to be unfamiliar with one meaning of a word does not to me seem to justify your slur on a whole generation of students, or indeed on anybody at all. --ColinFine (talk) 22:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The OP needs to read the EO entry, from which he can infer why "garnish" is used the way it is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)