Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 September 23

= September 23 =

What does the name Aelita mean?
Is it even a real name? I'd thought the Code Lyoko writers just made it up, but then I saw it was used in a Soviet sci-fi novel/movie. --128.42.223.219 (talk) 05:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Doing a google search turns up dozens of those sketchy "baby names" sites, but the consensus there is that the name means "Noble", as in a varient of "Elite". It isn't a common name, but it also isn't a completely made-up name either.  There are real people with it.  -- Jayron  32  05:46, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Remember it's a French series so it may help to ask French-speaking editors. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that Alexei Tolstoy invented this name, for the Martian girl in the eponymous novel (1923). There was no "meaning" per se, but the name was meant to side sufficiently romantic and "Martian". -- Vmenkov (talk) 03:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ngram agrees.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 04:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Arabic and French help
Hi! For File:TiziOuzou University-Thesis.JPG what is the Arabic and French for "The first Algerian Ph.D. Thesis in Berber Linguistics, Tizi Ouzou University, May 28, 2003" ? (For French, is it "la première thèse de doctorat des langues berbères, Université Mouloud Mammeri de Tizi Ouzou, 28 maï de 2003"?)

Secondly, for the board, is this a good English translation for what is there?
 * Defense of Doctorate Thesis
 * Presented by M. Mohamd Akli Haddadou
 * Jury: Mrs. Noura Tigzire, M. Comp, UMMTO President
 * Mr. Rabah Rahlouche, Professor, UMMTO Reporter
 * Mrs. Dahla Morsly, Professor, U. Angers Examiner
 * Mr. Vermondo Brugnatelli, Professor, U. Milan Examiner
 * Mr. Boutelja Riche, M. Conf, UMMTO, Examiner (check spelling to make sure the names are spelled right, please)

It would be nice to also have an Arabic translation of the board listing too, so I can post it on the Wikimedia Commons entry Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 07:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I can help you for the French part: it would be "la première thèse de doctorat sur les langues berbères, Université Mouloud Mammeri de Tizi Ouzou, 28 mai 2003". For the English part, I would say "Defense of doctoral thesis"; as for the spelling, I read "Mohand", "Tigziri" and "Kahlouche". Hope it helps! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Someone more intimately familiar with the French university system can probably clarify better, but it seems to me that Mme Tigzire was presiding over the defense, not that she was president of the university. "Rapporteur" is not a reporter, but maybe the student's thesis advisor? The others must be internal and external examiners. "M. Conf" is "maître de conférence", a specific rank in the French academic system, roughly equivalent to a "lecturer" in English although it differs depending on the English system. (Whenever I have had to translate that, I just leave it as a proper French noun).
 * Looking at fr.wki it would appear the un rapporteu is the main examiner who has actually read the thesis while "un examinateur" hasn't. The supervisor (le directeur de thèse) isn't specified in the picture. Aa77zz (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you all for the feedback! I made a preliminary English annotation at File:TiziOuzou University-Thesis.JPG WhisperToMe (talk) 08:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello ! From what I saw more than 30 years ago in Lyon, France (but it may be subject to local and chrono. variations) , the "rapporteur" summarizes and presents your work in a rather friendly way (above all if you are one of his students, and if he's inspired the "thèse") while "les examinateurs" tend to tear it to pieces, and harass you, for exemple, for limitating yourself to a hundred cases etc...T.y. Arapaima (talk) 10:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The file description currently says "The first Algerian Ph.D. Thesis in Berber Linguistics, Tizi Ouzou University, 28 May 2003", but the photo is not of the Ph.D. thesis itself but of the people present at the defense. Angr (talk) 10:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The person who uploaded the photo may have been one of the people present at the meeting. Yes, this is an image of the PHD defense hearings. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Translation from Arabic
Hello! I have this paragraph about Francis Marrash, and there is a sentence about his trip to Paris with his father in 1850, but there are some words I am not able to read; especially the sentence that says he (?) stayed in Aleppo until 1853 (?). Would anyone be kind enough to type or translate these sentences for me? Thank you very much in advance! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 12:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If no one manages to give you satisfactory assistance here, don't forget that there's the Arabic Wikipedia Language Reference Desk. --Theurgist (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea! Thank you so much Theurgist for telling me about it! I'll go post on it. Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Double contractions
I use "I'd've" in place of "I would have", but I'm not sure how to put that in writing. Is this the correct way ? Are there any other such double contractions ? StuRat (talk) 17:43, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll've noticed spell check doesn't like these double contractions. μηδείς (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I use these informally, and write them more or less that way—I'd've, wouldn't've, couldn't've, etc. I don't think anybody considers these standard, and most spell-checking software will mark these wrong unless you tell them not to. Mind, most style guides will tell you to avoid contractions entirely in essays and such. Personally, I tend to write with a slightly irreverent, plain-English kind of tone even in those situations, so I let them in anyway, hehe. dalahäst (let's talk!) 18:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Sturat, don't forget that you can indicate a non-standard word, pronunciation, or spelling with a single apostrophe. Thus I'd of' is allowed, after eyeing the pronunciation.  A less anal editor would probably just write I'd of in prose.  In the least formal online forums, if I wanted to be quite colloquial I might even write what I'd of done, etc.  Most readers wouldn't even notice - it would just come off as authentic speech.  The reason no variation of I'd've really looks right is because this is what is usually done instead. 80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I also note that this "authenticity" comes at the price of some actual aural authenticity. To me "I'd've" uses the iv schwa whereas i'd of' uses the ov schwa.  So writing "I'd ov" to mean "I'd iv" is cheating ever-so-slightly.  But iv and ov (I'd 've and I'd of) are really blending.  Most people wouldn't even make the distinction, I think.  (This indent is just about the pronunciation that is suggested by the spelling I propose). 80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you kidding, IP 80? "I'd of" is a sign of written illiteracy.  It has nothing to do with more accurately representing spoken pronunciation, which is perfectly represented by I'd've.  People don't speak misspellings.  One might as well say "Your a good friend of mine" or "Theirs know they're they're" are "authentic".  I had to stop reading a book once where the author intentionally used "I'd of", which brought me up short every time I saw it. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I would just write I'd have; [əv] is a weak pronunciation of have even when it isn't spelled  've. Consider a sentence like My brothers have called me ten times this week. I wouldn't write it My brothers've called... but I'd definitely pronounce it [ˈbrʌðɚzəv]. Angr (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * But when writing dialog, it's important to convey the level of formality of the speech. Mabye "My brothers 've called" would be better, with a space ? StuRat (talk) 20:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * But there's not even really a schwa there--that's a phantom of citation form and our tendency to analyze syllables with vowels. No one ever says "I'd (pause) of".  The /v/ in a naturally spoken "I'd've" is perfectly syllabic on its own. μηδείς (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with everything Medeis has said on this thread. I'd also make the point that what spellcheck may or may not like should be close to irrelevant for good writers (sheesh, it even has a problem with "spellcheck").  I'dn't've thought that was a problem.
 * PS. StuRat, your love of truth is well known.  This question is further evidence of it.  I feel supremely confident you'll follow whatever we tell you here.  Just as you always do when we tell you the only correct way of writing the possessive adjective its is without an apostrophe.  For example.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It's important for me to know the proper way to spell it, so I can spell it anyway but that. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, why didn't you say! Heck, if that's the only problem, I can suggest lots of ideas: it-s, iTs, i t s . it...s, it/s,  it(s), zebra, cheese, love, splinge, spifflicate, ...  There must be others.  Have at it.  Enjoy.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with Medeis's claim that there's no schwa in I'd've. The lack of a pause between I'd and  've doesn't prove anything. When I pronounce it, there is a moment after I release the [d] before I articulate the [v] during which no active articulator is in contact with any passive articulator, but I'm still exhaling through vibrating vocal chords. And that is the schwa sound. Maybe Medeis pronounces it differently, though. Angr (talk) 06:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Argue all you like, but /v/ is a voiced continuant, and if you can't say it without an independent vowel, you are not a fluent SAE or RP English speaker. You may pronounce a schwa there, but it is not inherent.  μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't say I couldn't, I said I don't. If you actually pronounce it [aɪdv̩] with no period of even a few milliseconds between the release of the [d] and the articulation of the [v], you're probably the only native English speaker who does. English doesn't have syllabic obstruents (except in a few marginal forms like psst!), only syllabic sonorants. Angr (talk) 22:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Conversely, the Irish character in Preacher regularly "pronounced" of as 've. Ugh. —Tamfang (talk) 23:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * For formal writing, I would say that "I'd've" is fairly atrocious. But for writing in a slangy way, "I'd've" works just fine. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I found this on Commons: File:Iwouldnothavecontractedlikethis.jpg. It isn't an article, per se, but it is interestingly germaine to this discussion.  WHAPOE maybe?  (we have a pic on everything)... -- Jayron  32  06:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of "ima" (as in Kanye West's "Ima let you finish..."), the remaining three letters/sounds of "I am going to". Adam Bishop (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That in turn reminds me of overhearing a conversation in which one of the parties said "Nome sane?" about a hundred times. You know what I'm saying? —Tamfang (talk) 23:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reminds me of what someone posted above. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  21:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * @ Angr, I guess the really relevant question is, are I'd of and I'd've contrasting minimal pairs? While there is a way that I can pronounce I'd of so it sounds indistinguishable from I'd've, it is also possible for me to say I'd of with a schwa in a way that I simply would never pronounce I'd've.  You seem, if I understand, to be saying they are not a possible contrasting pair in your speech.  I can't say I have ever heard anyone say "I'd. . . of" for "I'd've", but I would love to hear it on youtube (outside an elicited example) if someone has such a link. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Medeis, as the sequence I'd of is impossible in grammatical English, your question is meaningless. But if I misquoted "Beware the ide of March" it would sound just like I'd've.  Sussexonian (talk) 09:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not impossible if you use the citation form: The "I'd" of informal speech should not be used in formal writing. The issue is not whether one can pronounce the "I'd of" (or ide of) in the same reduced manner as I'd've, but whether one cannot make a minimal pair of "I'd of" and "I'd've".  The fact is that there is no unreduced "I'd've" that sounds like an unreduced "Ide/I'd of".  The first is necessarily and always reduced.  "of" is not. μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

How good is the "UK English versus American English" analogy for Austrian German versus German German?
How good is the UK English versus American English analogy for the difference between Austrian and German German?

According to the analogy, the STANDARD version of the two basically just have some minor spelling differences, and a speaker to one sounds like an "accent" to a speaker of the other. (assuming an educated speaker speaking in a standard way). is this true? --80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * That sounds more like the difference between US English and Canadian English. The larger difference between US English and UK English also includes usage differences.  Also, since Germany borders Austria, the geographic analogy with the US and Canada is also present.  Note that border regions of the US and Canada have a blended accent, does this also happen between Germany and Austria ? StuRat (talk) 20:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. The accents of Bavaria and Austria, while not identical, are more similar than they are different, and certainly more similar to each other than they are to the accents of the rest of the German-speaking world. As for the written language, the differences are much smaller than between British and American, or even between Canadian and American. There are no pure spelling differences as far as I know; the differences are mostly in vocabulary (is January called Januar or Jänner? are tomatoes called Tomaten or Paradeiser?) and syntax (ich habe gesessen or ich bin gesessen? - but even that isn't a Germany vs. Austria difference so much as a northern vs. southern difference with Bavarians, Allemanic speakers, and Austrians patterning together). Angr (talk) 20:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

for what it's worth, guys, when it comes to standard English, you can read many chapters before you realize that you have a "British edition" in your hand (maybe it's somethinas small as realise for realize). Other times you might get through the damn book and never know it. So, I would say that in standard, written English there are next to no differences; it really is an "accent" (like speaking with an unpronounced Boston, Southern, or Californian accent) and for this difference only very very rarely makes it onto the page.

With that said, does the same apply to German German versus Austrian German? Or is it heavier than that? I don't know how Canadians talk. 80.98.245.172 (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I can read German or English without noticing which language I just read. On the other hand, I don't think there even are separate German and Austrian versions of books (there may be different editions from different publishers, but, as far as I know, the text will usually be the same same). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Note also that the spelling differences between British and American standards do not represent differences in pronunciation. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * With one exception: the two spellings of alumin(i)um do reflect the two pronunciations. But otherwise, no, the pronunciation differences aren't reflected in the spelling, and the spelling differences don't reflect the pronunciation differences. Angr (talk) 06:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of "exceptions", from the top of my head air(o)plane, buro(ugh), and I am sure there are many more. I think all you can say is they usually don't represent a difference in pronunciation. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Airplane/aeroplane is indeed another exception (I don't think it reaches the point of simply being two different words like gasoline/petrol), but borough as a standalone noun (as opposed to an element in various place names) is spelled the same in en-US and en-GB. Certainly Americans don't write "Brooklyn is a boro of New York City", at least not in edited writing. Angr (talk) 13:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are lots of differences that reveal whether the text is British or American (a couple that spring to mind are "1 thru 10/1 to 10" and the different meaning of "momentarily"), but I agree that one can sometimes read a whole book without realising that it was published in a "foreign" version. Other "exceptions" where the spelling reflects a pronunciation difference are behove/behoove, furore/furor, haulier/hauler and speciality/specialty.    D b f i r s   16:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Things like aeroplane and aluminium are word variants, not reflections of different pronunciations of the same sound. There is no rule in American speech that requires one to drop an o between aer- and -plane, and an American will agree that aeroplane is pronounced "air-oh-plane" without at all affecting a British accent to say it.  Conversely, regular phonetic differences are not reflected in spelling.  The RP speaking British don't drop their ars in spelling harm or card.  Americans with the Mary-marry merger don't spell both Harry and hairy as hary because the say them the same.  There may be spelling variants like tyre and there may be word variants like whilst--and there are indeed jocular variants like "toon" for "tune" which do reflect regular pronunciation differences--but there are no standard spelling variations that reflect differences in pronunciation of the same word between British and American. μηδείς (talk) 17:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Harry and Hairy are not pronounced the same in the United States or certainly not in most areas (they aren't even close in fact).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:36, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? They certainly are in my accent.  What distinction would you make? --Trovatore (talk) 02:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh?! I pronounce them the exact same and haven't ever met anyone who pronounces them differently. I've lived in the US all my life. Or are you saying that Americans don't pronounce them the same as British English speakers? In which case, I still disagree. Dismas |(talk) 02:45, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither Northeasterners nor Brits rhyme marry and Mary or Harry and hairy. See the bottom of the thread. μηδείς (talk) 03:07, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No one I've ever heard in the northeast pronounces them the same. I've lived in New York my entire life and no one pronounces them the same; if anyone ever said "that's one harry dog" they would get strange looks from everyone. Harry is pronounced like harrier jet without the -er. Hairy is pronounced like hair with an -ee on the end. Please don't tell me you pronounce hair the same way you pronounce the harr, in harrier.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do pronounce Harrier similarly to Hairy and therefore Harry as well. Do you mean that people pronounce Harry like the sarcastic laughter sound of Hardy Har Har?  I've never heard this.  I also pronounce Hare Krishna like Hardy.  But I pronounce Hare like Hair.  I just asked my wife if she's ever heard anyone pronounce Harry as you seem to (she's lived in New England her entire life) and she said "Maybe if they're Indian.  But otherwise, no."  Dismas |(talk) 18:17, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the "a" in hardy (har har) is pronounced differently than the "a" in harry. It's very difficult to do this because all of our baselines are different; we're trying to use other words to get a sense of the pronunciation but even they are not pronounced the same as between us. Hmmm. By the way, I pronounce Mary, marry, merry and Marie each distinctly different from one another, as does everyone I know, (as μηδείς indicates above). Let me see If I can find some audio, so you can hear them, which is the only way I can see we're going to actually understand each other. I would upload an audio file but I don't have the equipment or the know how.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:34, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is very informative (though you won't really get the audio from it) but it provides the examples of the "a" in pat being the "a" in harry, and the "a" in care being the same as in hairy and that's spot on. As for merry, marry and Mary, strangely enough, though I do not have an Australian accent, this works perfectly fine to show the vowel pronunciation difference betwixt them that all northeasterns I know make.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a strange video. When she says the words by themselves, it's clear enough.  But when she uses them in the example sentences, it's very unclear which is which, and you have to rely on the context.  "Mary is Jesus's Mum" sounds to me like "Marry is Jesus's Mum", and the Merry in "Merry Christmas" sounds like a hybrid of Merry and Marry.  It demonstrates what I've often noticed: that many vowel sounds spoken by younger Australian people (which she is) are distinctly different from those spoken by older people, while still remaining recognisably Australian.  The new version of the long o sound (as in "phone home", which is more liable to sound like "fine hime" these days) is particularly different from the one I speak.  I imagine HiLo48 would concur.  --   Jack of Oz   (Talk)  08:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It is kind of odd that differently spelled words are pronounced the same way, at least within the confines of the respective accents (color vs. colour) whereas the pronouncation differences seem to arise where the spelling is constant (schedule as "skedule" vs. "shedule"). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Noah Webster's change of -our to -or and -re to -er work because they are both etymological (these are the Latin, not the French spellings) and they match pronunciation. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Why was Latin favoured over French here? English was not exactly uninfluenced by the presence of French-speaking people.  And how can "color" be considered to match the pronunciation any more than "colour" does?  The only thing that changes is the ending, yet that's unstressed no matter which dialect you speak.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  02:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is not that Latin was favored or that the pronunciation was any closer, (although it was) but that the simpler spelling made no real difference in the case of pronunciation, and that the words did originally trace back to Latin. (Indeed, if the second syllable of honor were stressed, the "or" pronunciation would be more acceptable than the "our" pronunciation by far.  And sen-ter for center is much closer to the actual /sɛntr/ (even for non-rhotics) than would be "sentruh" or "sentree".)  In other words, it's not so much that the Latinate spellings are more accurate as it is that they are simpler and in no way less accurate.  As for color, if you want to stick with the Fraunch it would be couleur, pronounced "cool air".  Time you quasi-Brits freed yourselves from the Norman yoke. μηδείς (talk) 21:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Btw, best of luck on your next trip to France, if you pronounce couleur as "cool air".  That would be closer to the word couler (not sure if that even exists).  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  00:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Cool air"'s a close approximation for English using the available English phonemes. I didn't say it was accurate French; what would have been the point?  Reminds me of the stir I made in high school playing Diplomacy (game) with some French exchange students who didn't realize I spoke French.  I heard one suggest an attack on me, not thinking I understood.  I told the other <> to some rather loud jaw dropping. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

@ Fuhgetta, I don't pronounce Harry amd Hairy the same and you don't, but most people in the US do. Surprised you weren't aware of this. Or of the Harry Baals Center of Fort Wayne. See Mary–marry–merry merger. μηδείς (talk) 02:49, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. In my experience, most Americans rhyme "Harry" and "hairy". But folks in the northeast, or at least in the New York City area, would say "Harry" with a short "a", as with "half" or "ham" or whatever; whereas they might pronounce "hairy" more like "ferry". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)