Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 April 14

= April 14 =

Language Identification
What in the flying sanskrit is this language? I've never seen it before, and i've tried looking at all the languages in google translate and none of them look anything like this.

ScreenShot

Thanks

137.81.118.126 (talk) 00:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's one of the scripts of J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings languages. I wanted to say Tengwar, but not quite.  ~!RNealK (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 01:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you meant Cirth. --Error (talk) 02:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) I was going to say it looks like some variety of runic alphabet... 86.146.106.118 (talk) 01:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have done a little searching on Google, and it appears that 86.146.106.118 is more correct. (The text seems runic). Specifically, it seems to be SIMILAR to a language known as "Futhorc". However, i question if it is a variant of such, as most Futhorc i have found thus far has a "Forwards P" letter, but the image i have has a similar "Backwards P" (flipped horizontally).

Does anyone know if my assumption is correct? Is this some variant of Futhorc, and if so what variant? Also, if possible, does it say or mean anything, or is it just gibberish designed to "look cool"? If it helps, i found this text in a flash game "Pain Tiger" for some twisted reason.

137.81.118.126 (talk) 02:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Futhark is the name of the alphabet by its first six letters, not the name of a language. It's just a matter of brute transcription to figure out if this is Tolkien or Runic. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's in Cirth, and using the table in our article it transliterates letter for letter as "for you I am ready on the great khallnge". The last word is weird but I don't see how I could have gotten it wrong. Looie496 (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have also used the table on Cirth to manually translate the message, and i would agree that Looie's analysis is correct, including the strange last word. I would hypothesize that the use of "K" instead of "C" is maybe done for fun, possibly in reference to the fact that Cirth is pronounced "Kirth" (The language easily supports saying "Challenge", as there is a letter meaning "Ch").

Thanks for the help!

137.81.118.126 (talk) 03:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

French knowledge while travelling in France
I'm about to embark on a European tour until next month. Most of the time, I will be spending time with relatives living in France. In order to "survive" a long period in France, is even basic knowledge of French necessary? They said few French people understand English. Also, I'll travel to Spain, Italy, Germany and possibly Austria, so is knowledge of the languages there necessary too? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends on where you are and who you deal with. The more cosmopolitan the area, and the younger the people you deal with, the more likely they are to handle English well.  In any case it would certainly be useful to master some key phrases such as oui and non and merci and voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir. Looie496 (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The last question will likely garner the response "Va te faire enculer!" Which is a polite way of declining said request.  -- Jayron  32  03:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also a useful phrase to know. Looie496 (talk) 03:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Polite expressions, especially the variations on merci, would always be welcome. And if you're trying to find out if someone speaks English, better not to ask "Parlez-vous anglais?" but rather "Do you speak English?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Since I was last in France in the 1980s, you probably won't consider me a reliable source, but from my experience, many of them know quite a lot of English, and most of them know a bit. This would not have gotten worse since the 80s, but I doubt the average person in a shop would be expected to know enough English to serve you. As for Germany, my understanding is, like Scandinavians, they are almost fluent, and my guess is you will be fine. Italy and Spain I haven't a clue about, but French is probably the language to learn. If you are travelling without their languages, you should get travel advice on the dangers you will face, since my parents were cheated out of quite a bit of money by a confidence trickster in Italy. It's not that language is the problem per se, but a swindler may see that you lack confidence etc. and can prey upon your general dependence on others. IBE (talk) 10:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * More possibly unreliable personal experience, but I found that in France, the only place where a relatively large number of people spoke English was in Paris, probably because that's where all the tourists go. Most of them were happy to do so, and enjoyed the opportunity to practise. If someone didn't speak English, they would just say so, no problem. A couple of people fit the rude stereotype of being rude to anyone speaking English, or of being able to speak English but refusing to do it, but that was rare even in Paris. I also never had to ask someone if they spoke English, since they will probably recognize your English accent right away (and they can probably tell if you're American or British, at least...apparently I confused people, they always thought I was Irish). The rude stereotype, I am sure, comes from the idea that they should speak English. Why should they? Wouldn't it be annoying if someone came to your country and expected you to speak their language, without even bothering to try speaking yours? Of course it would. It's the same there. Anyway, elsewhere in France, if you're in a place where there are lots of tourists, then certainly the people who are used to dealing with tourists will speak a bit of English, but otherwise probably not. Where I lived (Nantes), pretty much nobody spoke English, and nobody at all in the little towns and villages in the surrounding area. They were happy to try though, even if they only knew a few words. In Germany, like IBE said, a lot more people know English, and a lot more fluently, and they are rather more proud about it than people in France are. In my limited experience of Italy and Spain, Italians seemed to speak French but not English, and Spanish people seemed to speak English (but not French!). Adam Bishop (talk) 11:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, in France it would very much depend of where you are going (in Paris of course it is no problem) ; you are going to find much english being spoken in the Périgord, and around the côte d'Azur (Nice, e.g.), because English people have beein going there as tourists for a long time (and I rather suspect the Périgord/Aquitaine thing has to do with history; they were always close bonds between Aquitaine and England). Same holds true for Italy: Venice, Rome and Florence are no problem, whereas Sardinia and Sicily would be very difficult. Lectonar (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Similar situation in Spain, so far as I know. In the tourist areas and tourist-frequented parts of the big cities there will be widespread but possibly fairly basic knowledge of English, but much less so in the more rural and non-frequented areas, and among older people generally.  ¿Habla inglés? would be a good phrase to know.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In rural areas, when asking a "phrase tourists should know" (eg. donde esta la playa) just expect a long response in some unknown  dialect, smile, thank them, and hope they used a lot of hand gestures you understood. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why it's better to say "Do you speak English?" Because if you ask that question in their own language, they may assume you know more of the language than you really do. Also, if you get a blank look, you'll have your answer. And they say, "A little", then you've got some common ground to work with. And another tip is, speak slowly. As you would hope the other-language speaker would if you know some of their language but are not fluent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * From my experience, and from most travel guides, I would recommend the opposite. Try to address people in the local language. Just imagine how you would react if someone unexpectedly accosts you in an unfamiliar language in, say, Chicago or Boston or Denver. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. In my experience in France, it's always best to start off with a cheery "Bonjour!" and to have looked up the key words of whatever you want to communicate beforehand, even if you can't make a sentence. The French people that can speak English will then be more than happy to help you out, but away from Paris and the Channel Ports, a substantial minority of people will only know a few English words. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And try not to mispronounce their personal names. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not only should you speak slowly, you should also speak loudly. "Mercy buttercups" and "shut the door" are good to use while shopping and talking to pretty strangers in France. "Me wantem" and "You savvy" are helpful phrases when speaking English to foreigners. Other helpful advice can be found here. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Essential French: J'apologise, mais je ne parle pas Français, Où est le vaysay (vaysay is WC; the toilet) and Deux bières, et mon ami payera. Have a good time. Tonywalton Talk 00:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if that is part of the joke, but in case not, I will say that "j'apologise" is not French. "Excusez-moi/pardon/je suis désolé(e), mais je ne parle pas français." Lesgles (talk) 04:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Am I the only one who's genuinely baffled by people who say "I don't speak [language]" in said language? Gabbe (talk) 07:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm a logician, so I got my sister, who is a historian and romanist, to teach me how to say "Excuse me, I only speak very little French" in French. In practice, that tends to confuse people more, because it's a much more complex statement. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see any logical contradiction. The ability to speak a single sentence in a language doesn't imply an ability to speak that language (as the concept of "speaking a language" is normally construed). Victor Yus (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being vague. Other languages than English often fail to make a distinction between "I am speaking Aramaic" (as in what the actors are doing in The Passion of the Christ) and "I speak Aramaic" (as in actually being able to communicate in that language). It is true that in English, the utterance "I don't speak English" isn't normally construed as "I am not speaking English". But in Swedish, for example, both those phrases would be translated as Jag talar inte engelska. Gabbe (talk) 09:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

teaching french as third language to deaf children
i am researching on the problems deaf children face in learning french as a third language, a compulsory subject for all taking government end of course exams in Cameroon. so i wish to find out the effects of
 * late exposure
 * interaction with other users
 * interference of other languages and
 * the use of limited language skills (listening, speaking, reading and writing ),on language acquisition.

195.24.209.22 (talk) 14:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry that no-one has got back to you yet on this. You seem to need to do a major literature review of language acquisition. I think it will take you some time. As far as I know, it is well established that late exposure has a negative effect on language acquisition. When languages are acquired as third languages, after early childhood, the methods used are the usual school methods, and they do not always succeed. And then you have the factor that you are talking about Deaf children. I'm from the UK, and I think that here, Deaf children could be exempt from learning a second language, let alone a third one. There could be some good practice in Wales, where most children learn English and Welsh - from an early age if possible. (Of course they may be bilingual in British Sign Language and English, so any other language is a third one for them.) About interaction with other users - this is central to most learning of further languages. Interference - there is an academic literature on that; the bit I remember is that you only get interference with languages that you are not fluent in. I sometimes get interference between Vietnamese and Spanish, which really annoys me. "Va" means "go" in Spanish, "and" in Vietnamese. The languages have nothing in common, it's just that I'm not that fluent in either. I never get interference betwen English and anything else, or French and anything else because I have English as native and French near-native. The importance of limited language skills on acquisition of a further language, I am sure it is important, but not a reason for not trying. If you have a practical problem, i.e. how to get your students through their French exams, I suggest that as well as this specialist stuff you need to rely on what we know generally about teaching and learning. Have high expectations. Keep your students motivated. Believe that they can learn and let them know that they can learn. Give praise. Break tasks down into manageable parts so that they can see progress. Make it fun. Show them what the rewards are of being able to communicate in French. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Wanted Chinese to English translator
Can somebody help this user (an active editor of Chinese Wikipedia) who asked some help on meta-wiki for translation. I am pasting the question here for your convenience.

It would be better to answer the question there itself if you have an account there. Thanks for your help ···V ani s che nu「m/Talk」 20:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Name to describe linguistic repetition?
What is the name of a type of linguistic repetition, as in this case?

舒服 ==> 舒舒服服

I suppose the English equivalent would be something like "teensy weensy eenie beenie" or maybe something like "honey, here's your din din!" 65.24.105.132 (talk) 23:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reduplication, but there are different, more specific types. μηδείς (talk) 23:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Ideophones are forms which use suggestive sound symbolism (often reduplicated or partially reduplicated). Ideophones are somewhat marginal in English, but some languages have whole elaborate systems of them... AnonMoos (talk) 03:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Gormless
I can't find a definition of the word "Gormless" in the dictionary we have. Would you give us the definition? It appeared in the Toronto Star newspaper April 14th, 2013. It was used in a sentence:"the reference works nicely given that both novels feature GORMLESS, inexperienced characters 216.59.226.164 (talk) 23:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Gormless means a bit dumb, a bit thick, a bit stoopid. The OED has "Wanting sense, or discernment." Free online dictionaries at both Webster (http://mydictionary.myresources.com/browse/gormless ) and Chambers (at http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/ ) have the word, as does Wiktionary, here Tonywalton Talk 00:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Most ref desk regulars are relatively gormful. --  Jack of Oz  [Talk]  02:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed: '...from gome "notice, understanding" (c.1200), from Old Norse gaumr "care, heed," of unknown origin'. Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In my experience "gormless" does have a more affectionate tone than, say, "stupid" or "thick", though (and yes, I'm aware of the etymology from both OED and Wiktionary). Somebody gormless is more likely to receive an affectionate "bless" yes, I'm thinking of a specific apprentice working with me; everybody says "ah, bless" when recounting his/her antics than an annoyed "for God's sake" when they display their gormlessness. More Norman Wisdom than Chauncey Gardiner. Tonywalton Talk 23:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * MAkes you wonder what 'gormful' would mean..... KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I dunno, but I'm glad Gorm the Old married Thyra and not Ruth. --  Jack of Oz  [Talk]  02:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The word "Gormless" is something that is "hanging" or "gross" Another example of "gormless" is shauna leigh jones