Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 April 4

= April 4 =

Punjabi Sindhi Urdu Pashto Baloch Hindko Saraiki grammar and words comparison website
Is there a website that shows the comparison of oral grammar and words of Languages spoken in Pakistan: Baloch, Pashto, Urdu, Sindhi, Hindko, Saraiki, and Punjabi?--Donmust90 (talk) 02:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

Is there a term for this?
Let's say I enter a building. Instead of the inside of the building, there is a completely different environment, like for example the inside of a spaceship. So I'm inside a building but once I enter it, the environment changes into a spaceship. It's not a hallucination. It looks real, but it's a different kind of real. It's a real that's experienced only inside the building. Is there a term for this? Like is it called fake realness? Artificial realness? Mattdillon87 (talk) 03:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Shall I be the first to say TARDIS? HiLo48 (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure if there's a word for it, but there's a common device in architecture, to have someone pass through a narrow entrance into a surprisingly open environment, such as an atrium filled with plants and perhaps birds and butterflies. I'm also reminded of Shangri-La, which was so described, when emerging from the tunnel to get there.  The Pantheon is an interesting early example of this, from ancient Rome (perhaps with less wildlife). StuRat (talk) 03:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In Star Trek: The Next Generation they had the Holodeck. StuRat (talk) 03:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reality distortion field? Suspension of disbelief? Bus stop (talk) 04:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I think StuRat has an idea of what I'm trying to say. If I go into a building and discover another environment instead. It looks real, but it can't possibly be. Like if I go inside a building and then suddenly it looks like I'm in the woods. Mattdillon87 (talk) 04:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Trompe-l'œil perhaps? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Camera obscura presents a view of outside onto the interior walls of a room. But, it doesn't have to be what is outside of the building, just whatever the optical device is looking at.  Astronaut (talk) 19:43, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: side of Best Western hotel
What are the Chinese characters on the side of this File:Best Western Bowery Grand jeh.JPG hotel? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 潢璧大厦 and 潢璧酒店. See . Oda Mari (talk) 06:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 06:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Greek Name Question: Patronymic Family Name meaning "Daughter of a Naiad?"
I am trying to name a character for a short story I'm working on in my spare time. The character is the descendant of a Naiad -- freshwater nymph, if I'm getting my mythology correct -- and I wanted to allude to this with her last name. However, I haven't the foggiest how to properly use the patronymic endings / the rules for grammar to make it work right. I presume that you'd start with Naiad or Naiades and then conjugate it with the proper patronymic ending -- am I on the right track? KiTA (talk) 11:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * See Patronymic Greek here for answers. I do not think the Greeks had a matronym. Females might have feminine variants of the male name. Sneazy (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no idea if I am doing it correctly, but all I have done is take the ancient Greek name and attach "poulos" in Greek after it: Ναϊάδεςπουλος. I can't say much for accuracy, since the πουλος part was copied from Google Translate. If I were expressing in English, I would probably write "Naiadopoulos". Your character's full name would be WhateverFirstNameHere Naiadopoulos. I would expect that your nymph's father is also a nymph, since the last name is passed down from father to child. Since nymphs are not human, I wouldn't expect them to have last names. You may just call the little nymph by her given name. Asking for the last name of a deity is like asking God whether or not he has a last name. Sneazy (talk) 15:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Your nymph's father is also a nymph"... therein lies the problem. Nymphs (including Naiads) are by definition female, so unless they had a sex change (like Caeneus who was born female) they couldn't be anyone's father. (And in Ancient Greece, not even humans had last names!) Angr (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I was thinking direct female descendant, so I imagine it would be technically a "Matronymic" name, not a Patronymic name, which isn't terribly common (but not unheard of). And reading up on Greek Surnames, apparently women would, until very recently, take their husband's surname only putting it in the Genitive case -- so to take Sneazy's suggestion and go with it, Naiadopoulos would become Naiadopoúlou?  But based on Greek Names the -Poulos suffix isn't the only one used?  KiTA (talk) 21:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Naiadopoulou would be better for a female character than Naiadopoulos. Or if you literally want "Daughter of a Naiad": Naiadokori. I don't see why you can't use such a name: So the naming does not follow actual Greek practice.  If that's not a concern and you just want such a name for symbolic-aesthetic reasons, go for it.-- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Why do parochial school and Christian school have their own Wiki pages here?
Would it not make sense to combine them into one? What is the difference between a parochial school and a Christian school/academy? In my own words, a parochial school is a school affiliated with a parish or located within the vicinity of a parish. A Christian school/academy is a school/academy/educational building that is affiliated with a church/parish/cathedral. Typically, it's a private school, if the government wants to keep the public schools nonreligious or multi-faith/ecumenical. I also assume that Christian schools or private schools tend to be smaller than public schools intended for everybody, though when I asked a classmate about whether or not he attended a parochial school, he replied that he actually intended a "non-denominational Christian academy". Eh? Sneazy (talk) 14:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Parochial school typically refers to a privately-run Roman Catholic school. The so-called Christian schools could be most anything else, but typically considered Protestant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, Parochial school actually includes Protestant-affiliated schools. Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist, Methodist, Catholic, Episcopal/Anglican, etc. etc. etc. Reading the article closely brings me to the conclusion that my classmate could have attended a privately run Christian fundamentalist school, which is marked by his resentful attitude of the school. He adds that he's still a Christian, though, even though he cares less about the school. Sneazy (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * There's no requirement for a school run according to Christian (or allegedly-Christian) principles to be run by any given parish, or even by a church which has parishes at all. I'd definitely understand a parochial school as being specifically one which was operated at least partly by the (usually Anglican or RC) parish in which it was located. Whereabouts are you, Sneazy? 'Academy' means different things in different places. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * United States. I presume it means "private school". Sneazy (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be my assumption. (Here in the UK, we have religious state schools, and all schools are supposed to include a short act of Christian worship in their curricula; nevertheless, the teaching of evolution, world religion, etc, are mandatory.) AlexTiefling (talk) 15:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder if that would count as a "moment of silence" for nonreligious students. Good time to pause and reflect what you did and contemplate what you are going to do, and give thanks to the people in the world who have been thoughtful and think about what you should do in return for the community. Sneazy (talk) 16:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that in many cases that's almost all there is anyway; but there's a well-established right for non-Christian pupils to absent themselves from acts of worship. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:10, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In other words, non-Christian pupils are not required to worship. Though, non-Christian pupils may voluntarily express their gratitude as a nonreligious ritual - a ritual in a sense that the habit is repeated everyday to remind oneself of humility, generosity, and kindness. Sneazy (talk) 16:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There may also be several slight differences in meanings. I would expect a parochial school to be linked to a single denomination and probably to be at least partly funded by that group. A Christian school might be nondenominational (multi-denominational) and might be parent-funded (private). The question of whether they need separate Wikipedia articles is a good one but should be discussed on their talk pages. Rmhermen (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur. A "parochial school" is denominational in affiliation, funding and governance, whether it is the Catholic schools most Americans think of, or the Lutheran parochial schools here in Milwaukee. A "Christian school", on the other hand, is not necessarily run or funded by a single denomination. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  21:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Lolita
Can someone point me to the specific lines or chapter where Humbert Humbert has sex with Lolita for the first time in Nabokov's novel Lolita? Acceptable (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe "Reference desk/Humanities" would be a better place to ask this question. (Also, wouldn't it depend on which edition of the book you were referring to?) — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Part One, chapter 29. John M Baker (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If you get the book from the library, it's probably the first page in the section that has dirt markings on the outside in the middle - you know, where the thumb usually goes... --TammyMoet (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Let's just hope the pages aren't stuck together. StuRat (talk) 05:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That's just not Acceptable. — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:17, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reminds me of my life. It's an open book, but readers will discover some pages are ripped out and others are stuck together.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Can you advise on the correct wording of:
When you talk about size in acres, it is called "Acreage".....but what is the correct term when referring to Hectares?

Is it Total Area? Or 'Hectareage'?

Johnny-Mac — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.172.85.76 (talk) 18:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hectarage can be used. Looie496 (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I suppose it can, but the OP geolocates to Australia. I'm Australian too. We metricated 40 years ago. I have never heard the word Hectarage. (In fact some of our real estate agents still try to get away with using acres in ads. They're smaller, so there's more of them in a given chunk of land, so maybe they hope that dumb buyers will think the property is bigger.) HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * So if not "hectarage", what do you call it? Just "land area"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * What do we call what? (I think the answer's "land area"?) HiLo48 (talk) 06:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd just say 'area', in the same way that I feel 'distance' is preferable to 'mileage'. We wouldn't speak of volume as 'pintage' or 'litrage', after all. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have quite routinely come across the word hectarage in the UK, in talking about areas of land, and not thought there was anything odd or difficult to understand about it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It sounds like folks who used to say "acreage" switched to "hectarage" out of habit. It sounds like a real estate term. Typically you would talk about your home's floor space as some number of square feet or square meters. For your lot, you could say, "I've got 21,780 square feet", but it makes more sense to say "I've got half an acre". Likewise for hectares vs. square meters. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Do people in Australia talk about what petrol kilometrage their cars get? Angr (talk) 22:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Our "mileage may vary", but not that much.  The closest we get to kilomet-rage is road-rage.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  23:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I will admit total defeat to the metric system only when soccer hooligans order liters of beer instead of pints. :-) StuRat (talk) 00:33, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The British politician who even suggests that change will be out of a job before he's even finished speaking. Some things are truly sacred, and the horrid warning of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four shows all too clearly the inevitable consequence of selling beer in metric glasses. Next stop, Newspeak and the Thought Police. (Actually, canned beer already comes in metric sizes, but that's beside the point.) Alansplodge (talk) 01:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In other words, you accept it when it suits you, but otherwise ....  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  01:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, the leaden hand of the Brussels Eurocrats who tell us what can be sold and what can't. Still, some Johnny Foreigner called Günter Verheugen has said that we can carry on buying beer in pints. How are the mighty fallen. Alansplodge (talk) 01:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This is an interesting and pertinent read. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  11:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Capital letters in the African reference alphabet
When printing something in the African reference alphabet, is there typically a distinction between E and Ɛ, or are they normally printed alike? For background notes — I'm in the middle of putting a bunch of Kpelle books into Endnote, and I'm experiencing some confusion with the capital letters. It's easy to tell Ɣ and Ɔ and Ŋ and ̃Ɔ apart from each other and from the traditional Latin letters, and I expect that Ɓ will likewise be easy when I run into it, but KPƐLƐƐ ("Kpelle") looks like KPELEE in the titles I'm looking at; I had to look until I found the word in lower-case letters, since the Kpɛlɛɛ and Kpelee are printed differently. Of course I'm not asking you to tell me anything about these specific books; I'm simply mentioning the situation as an illustration for the question in my first sentence. Nyttend (talk) 19:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)



On top of this, I've found a letter I've never seen before and can't find in Windows Character Map or in the list of Latin-script letters — it basically looks like an inverted version of the pink ribbons in the picture. Since I can't find it anywhere, I can't yet transcribe it. Nyttend (talk) 19:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Never mind; I just realised that it was a Ɣ in a funny typeface. Nyttend (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't have much experience with the alphabet, but I'll throw some things out there. The designers of the alphabet obviously intended them to be kept separate, so I imagine it is the fault of the publishers, or maybe it had something to do with the typesetting requirements for the covers. You may have noticed that in the 1982 revision didn't include capital letters at all. Maybe there is also some connection to the frequent French practice of omitting accents on capital letters (disapproved of by the Académie française). Lesgles (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)