Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 20

= August 20 =

Belgian Surname
How would the surname Beckx (as in Peter Jan Beckx be pronounced? I assume it's Flemish, not Walloon French, although the article doesn't make that clear.  The X article doesn't mention any special usage of the letter in that language, or anything other than the English standard 'ks' in Dutch.  Rojomoke (talk) 10:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the X is pronounced as 'ks' in the name of his fellow-countryman Eddie Merckx. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The combination 'ckx" does not occur in any contemporary Dutch words, it is only found in some names; the only plausible pronunciation for a Dutch speaker is indeed 'ks'. The following video of of a Flemish tv-show has the name Frank Beckx in it at around 0:13: . - Lindert (talk) 12:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The pronunciation given in our article about the famous cyclist Eddy Merckx is . Alansplodge (talk) 16:53, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops - sorry Andrew - I didn't read your post. Alansplodge (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Settling place name disagreements
What references would you suggest to settle disputes as to the primary, modern, widely used name of a geographic place in the English language? Chrisrus (talk) 16:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Widely used atlases, such as those published by the National Geographic Society and Royal Geographical Society? — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 16:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * See "Geographic Names Information System" for places in the United States.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Great! Thanks. Are there more ideas? Does anyone else have any ideas where the primary, modern, widely used names of Geographic places might be looked up? Chrisrus (talk) 18:06, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The source for most of the names in the U.S. Geographic Names Information System, and perhaps a more authoritative (because more established) source is the U.S. Board on Geographic Names (BGN). Another source widely used by U.S. publishers is Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary, as far as I know available only in print.  The leading commercial atlas publisher in the United States is Rand McNally, and the names used in its atlases have some influence on other publishers. The Times Atlas of the World, published by the UK cartographers Collins Bartholomew, is influential even in the United States, and presumably also in the UK and elsewhere.  That said, there are certainly cases on which these authoritative sources differ.  Most publications have a style sheet that names a source to be regarded as authoritative on geographic names.  Wikipedia might want to adopt a similar practice, perhaps preferring the national cartographic authority listed here for each English-speaking country for names within that country, then the U.S. BGN's preferred form for names in countries where English is not the official language (since no other government cartographic authority in an English-speaking country publishes standard forms for names outside the country's borders), and finally the national cartographic authority of the country in question if the BGN does not offer a standard form for a name in that country. Marco polo (talk) 18:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent, Mr. Polo. Thank you very much. Please, if anything else should occur to you, if you would please let us know. Chrisrus (talk) 00:13, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

How about you, any reader of these words. Where would you send a person who wanted to settle disagreement over geographic place names? Chrisrus (talk) 00:13, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There is the Atlas of Canada but if you wanted traditional names in the Kitikmeot Region then the Kitikmeot Place Name Atlas, which will also pronounce the name is useful. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

David Cameron saying "step up to the plate"?
Hi!

I was surprised to see UK PM David Cameron quoted in an LA Times article calling on websites such as Ask.fm to "step up to the plate and show some responsibility."

What, besides baseball, is the origin/usage of this term?

Thanks, Saintrain (talk) 17:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * UK user here. I was sure the phrase originated from the steam train's footplate: if something unfortunate befell the train driver, the stoker or fireman would have to "step up to the plate" and take over the driving duties. However, I have been unable to confirm this usage. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My guess would be: The phrase originated in the US, with the obvious baseball etymology.  The British then picked it up.  Some of them, not being familiar with baseball or at least not having it very much in their consciousness, found an alternative explanation, and Tammy either heard that from somewhere or made it up herself.  But I'm guessing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:34, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the OED only mentions the baseball etymology. 129.234.53.220 (talk) 22:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My ex-husband was a railwayman, who came from a family of railwaymen, so I guess that's where it came from.--TammyMoet (talk) 12:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The equivalent British English expression is "step up to the crease". But I guess Cameron has to avoid idioms that might confuse an international audience. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:53, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, all. Saintrain (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to add that I think it was brought to these shores through the medium of management speak. "Take a rain check" is widely used here too, although probably not universally understood. Alansplodge (talk) 13:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Tête-bêche in a sentence en francais
Hello! I'm trying to use this phrase in a sentence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%AAte-b%C3%AAche) in French for a poem I'm writing. What I'm unsure of is what word to use before the phrase - I know a little French. Would I use à, dans, avec, etc? The sentence I'm writing is a mix of English and French. I'm describing "an old collection of poems...tête-bêche." What word, in French, should go where the ... is? Sorry if this is confusing. Thank you! : ) 74.69.117.101 (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No need of anything - just place it after the word it modifies. It's an adjective. It is also invariable, so no plural form. So just "une vielle collection de poemes tete-beche." would likely be best, without knowing more. See wiktionary. Effovex (talk) 21:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The wiktionary link, and the other dictionaries online that I checked, seem to suggest that it isn't an adjective. It can be an adverb or a noun. To use the adverb, you could say "an old collection of poems displayed tête-bêche", or  "... arranged tête-bêche", but you need a verb for it to relate to. You could choose a french verb, if you liked, and the French wiktionary gives an example of people sleeping head-to-tail: "Ils étaient contraints de dormir tête-bêche". However, like all good french terms, this has been appropriated into the OED, which cites adverbal examples in English such as "each row is placed tête-bêche to the one below it."  129.234.53.220 (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hum, I had misread adv into adj (although I had also seen it |described as an adjective elsewhere which is probably why I misread it when I saw it on wiktionary - other French dictionaries are blocked where I am) - but the end result for the phrase is the same. It does explain the invariability though. Effovex (talk) 22:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

An Irish slang?
What does an Irish person mean to say with this word blow-in, when they are referring to a non-born Irish that has lived in Ireland for a long long time?  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  20:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The term probably comes from birdwatching, referring to birds that are not native to a country or region but have been blown in by a storm. The term suggests that the bird does not belong there and is out of place. Marco polo (talk) 20:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * BTW, there's no such thing as "a slang"--the term is a mass noun, not a count noun. You can have a bit of slang or a slang phrase, but not an Irish slang. μηδείς (talk) 20:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The phrase is quite common here in Ireland. I'm a blow-in as a Londoner living in Dublin, but it's probably more common as a term used by people living in smaller villages and towns where the population has been quite static for many years. There, people moving from other parts of the country are described as blow-ins, even many years after they have arrived. One of my colleagues, a Dubliner, is still called 'the blow-in' by his neighbours, 30 years after he moved to the countryside.
 * Marco has quite a nice explanation for the origin, but the phrase makes me think of litter blown into a town on the wind. Either way, though, it's certainly meant as a slightly derogatory, but affectionately meant, term for someone who arrives in a place some years after their birth, as if carried there by the wind. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Not even after their birth. Where I live, one needs to have had at least 5 generations born here to be considered a "local".  I've lived here only 7 years.  I've never been called a "blow-in" as such, but I'm certainly a long way off being a "local" yet.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:20, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * And Vermont has the same sort of, for lack of a better word, prejudice. You're not a "Vermonter" unless you can prove X number of generations of relatives who lived in Vermont.  There are even some people in the state that don't feel that Burlington, our biggest city, really counts as being part of Vermont because it's too liberal/cosmopolitan/etc.  There's a joke that goes along with it that says that the nice thing about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont.  Dismas |(talk) 01:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks everybody, now I could get a joke in a book :P and learnt something new.  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  14:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Teochew romanization
How do you romanize 鸭母稔 in Teochew?--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 23:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ask for the WikiProject China's help in addition to here. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah-bó-nìm I believe. Alex ShihTalk 05:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)