Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 4

= August 4 =

Chinese reading of these characters?
In List_of_Tenjho_Tenge_characters I found the fictional character Fu Chi'en 虎 瀉殷, Japanese reading Fū Chein. The first two are hǔ xiè but is the third Yīn, yān, or yīn? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The correct Pinyin would be Hǔ Xièyīn, and while the name may sound plausible in Japanese, it's an implausible name in (modern) Chinese, because one of the meanings of the character '瀉' is "to have diarrhea". Marco polo (talk) 14:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 06:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Multiple apostrophes?
I came across an odd situation. The Oakland Athletics seem to be abbreviated Oakland A's. Now if I want to emphasize their ownership, how would I do it? "Oakland A's' owner Charlie Finley" looks silly. A's's'is't me, someone. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid if you don't like "Oakland A's' owner Charlie Finley" your only recourse is to recast the phrase as "Charlie Finley, owner of the Oakland A's" or "Oakland Athletics' owner Charlie Finley" or something else. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I would strictly avoid the double apostrophe, because it will always look like a typo, and people will try to read something else into it, just like I read your clever "A's's'is't me" as "A's's isn't me" (isn't my thing). IBE (talk) 08:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Here are links to related discussions in the Archives.
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 September 7
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 29 [sic]
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 October 31
 * —Wavelength (talk) 14:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a false premise. It's simply "Oakland A's owner." It's an adjective, not a possessive. For a parallel example, google [yankees owner jacob ruppert]. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I question that, Bugs. We have a football team called Melbourne Storm, or just "the Storm".  The owner would be referred to, not as "the Storm owner" as you would have us say, but as "the Storm's owner".  It's a possessive there, not an adjective.  Why would it be any different when the name of the team just happens to be in the form of a possessive itself?  One could argue that such a name takes a null possessive; but that is not the same as saying it's suddenly transmogrified into an adjective.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going by common usage rather than some strict English rules. You've raised another old question, of whether a singular word for a team is an "is" or an "are". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * See "Noun adjunct".—Wavelength (talk) 23:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I knew it looked okay without the second apostrophe; I just wanted to know if it was grammatical. The consensus appears to be (e.g. The Economist style guide) to work your way around it and avoid the issue entirely. Thanks, all. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

treble/triple - AmerEng vs BrEng
I'm wondering about the relative use of treble vs. triple, in the verb sense of those two words. I was until recently unaware of that meaning of the first word (I've always associated it with music theory; the opposite of bass, up the staff rather than down), but I've recently come across it in the work of a number of British writers. It's a bit of confusion that's hard for me to ignore now, as I'm editing an English writer's work for an American audience, in the process correcting some Anglicisms and other style issues that may be distracting to US readers.

So, to boil this down to a question: Am I right in assuming that the verb sense of "treble," meaning "to multiply by three; to make into three parts, layers, or thrice the amount," is more common in the UK rather than the US? Certainly "triple" is the more common word with this definition in the US, but does "treble" stand out as a distinct Anglicism in comparison? Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 23:10, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Check out the common origin of "treble" and "triple", both from the Latin triplus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Um, how does that help answer the question? 86.169.184.143 (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * See below. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Bugs. Yeah, I noticed the triplus bit on the Wiktionary entry for "triple," and guessed that they shared a Latin etymology. It's more of a regional style thing I'm asking about, I guess. In context, anyone should be able to work out what "treble" means, much as I did when I first came across the word in that sense (don't want our troubles being "doubled or trebled," after all), but I'm just wondering if it happens to look as odd to other native speakers of American as it did to me. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 23:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * About the only American usage I've heard "treble" is the musical symbol, and in law where they talk about "treble damages" in a civil suit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * These graphs may be of interest:
 * http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=trebled%2Ctripled&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=18&smoothing=3 http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=trebled%2Ctripled&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=3
 * These suggest that, as a verb, "triple" has come to dominate over "treble" in both AmE and BrE in recent years (reversing the previous situation), but noticeably more so in AmE. 86.169.184.143 (talk) 23:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks much, 86! That's just about exactly what I was looking for. Further input still welcome, of course, if anyone has anything else to contribute. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 23:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Entirely my own opinion, but "treble" is rarely heard now in the UK but would be understood by me, although I'm not sure about younger people. Note that the triple expansion engine seems to have been a British invention first used in 1881, and was never called a "treble expansion engine". Alansplodge (talk) 13:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Although still current in the field of gambling apparently; What is a Treble Bet?, What Are Double And Treble Bets? and Treble Bet Calculator. Alansplodge (talk) 14:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's also commonly used here in the UK in the game of darts, for example "treble twenty". And Private Eye magazine often finish articles about corporate greed with "Trebles all round!", referring to units of alcohol. 81.156.237.98 (talk) 16:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Some U.S. statutes provide for treble damages, and when a verb is needed a judge will refer to "trebling" the damages. This specialized sense probably accounts for a significant part of the uses of "trebled" that persist in American English.  John M Baker (talk) 14:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes - see Treble damages which "survived the change from 'treble' to 'triple' in American English." Alansplodge (talk) 16:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Does this mean that at some point "double damages" will be simplified to "diple damages"? μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm certain that word can be heard somewhere in this classic routine about a double dozen double damask dinner napkins. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)