Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 8

= August 8 =

Around/Round
I'd like to say I thought of this out of nowhere and not from you know where (if you've seen my earlier questions,) but if I did then I'd be lying. Anyhow, I was wondering about the use of "around" and "round" as in:
 * "We didn't have much trouble this time round." and
 * "We didn't have much trouble this time around."

So, I guess they are equivalent in this context, but are there uses for one where you couldn't use the other? I've noticed more usage of "around"; are there any places where "round" is more prevalent? Any information on these is greatly appreciated. Thanks! --.Yellow1996.(ЬMИED¡) 01:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * See Merry-go-round" (merry-go-round) and "Roundabout" (roundabout).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The saying connected with the "wheel of fortune" (the classic myth, not the game show): "Round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * EO has "around" as strictly an adverb, while "round" is a verb, a noun, an adjective... and as an adverb, a shortened version of "around". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

round round get around i get around you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby round like a circle in a spiral like a wheel within a wheel --Trovatore (talk) 01:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For the more elderly of us, there's "Round and Round", best known as a Perry Como hit song. And further back, the song "The Music Goes Round and Round". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * But what goes round doesn't come round. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Would that be considered an adverb form? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:55, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Just as "around" is in the standard formulation: What goes around comes around.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * And for the young (at heart), the wheels on the bus go round and round MChesterMC (talk) 08:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the verb form. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:55, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd have thought that was the adverb, modifying the verb go (or possibly a compound verb "go (a)round")MChesterMC (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think you're right. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Cool; thanks for all the new information, everyone. That helped a lot! :) --.Yellow1996.(ЬMИED¡) 16:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Preposition: Rock Around the Clock and Rockin' Round the Clock. Duoduoduo (talk) 19:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The Latin derivation of "conscious"
Our article on consciousness -- also a Scholarpedia version that I've been working on -- contains the following passage, which I wrote:

"The English word 'conscious' was derived from the Latin conscius (con- 'together' + scire 'to know'), but the Latin word did not have the same meaning as our word — it meant knowing with, in other words having joint or common knowledge with another (Lewis, 1990). There were, however, many occurrences in Latin literature of the phrase conscius sibi, which translates literally as "knowing with oneself", or in other words sharing knowledge with oneself about something. This phrase had the figurative meaning of knowing that one knows, as the modern English word "conscious" does."

I worked hard to get that right, but I'm not a Latin speaker and don't have much confidence in it anyway. If there are any Latin experts lurking around and you see anything that I've botched there, I'd very much appreciate being told about it. Thanks, Looie496 (talk) 15:31, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There are two etymological dictionaries at http://www.lexilogos.com/english/latin_dictionary.htm which links to a few dozen in total. The only etymology I found gives the same you have.  Etymology on line implies its' a neologism from the 1600's.  Personally, con- is often an intensivizer similar to one sense of ge- in German, and I suspect it does not literally imply with anything or anyone else. μηδείς (talk) 15:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure I agree on the point of "what the modern English word" means. That seems to be about introspection, not consciousness.  Phenomenal consciousness, in particular, just means you perceive something, whereas access consciousness has to do with whether the perception corresponds to the world; neither one has anything to do with second-order reflection on that perception. --Trovatore (talk) 15:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There are writers who use the term conscious to mean more than just aware of phaenomena. Julian Jaynes is an obvious example, who argues that before men realized the voices in their heads were there own thoughts and not the Gods, geniuses, or the dead they were not actually conscious.  It is important to know what definition a specific author is using.  I found Jaynes extremely confusing until i realized he didn't mean aware, he meant critically self-aware. μηδείς (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Those are valid points, but they are aspects that I thoroughly understand and have dealt with in parts of the article that I didn't quote here. What I'm really concerned about is whether I got the bits about Latin right. Looie496 (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I would leave out the line about the English word, though. --Trovatore (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There is added complication, in that we have "conscience" and "conscientious" also.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Given the suggestion the word is a modern neologism, I wouldn't call it Latin unless there's a classical source. Latinate would be better in that case. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, the Swedish word for "consciousness" is medvetande (that is, med "with" + vetande "knowledge/knowing") which is calqued from the Latin conscientia. Gabbe (talk) 19:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe the verb is more traditionally presented assciro, scire. Some latin dictionaries can be searched for infinitive forms, but usually (and especially in paper), the entry is under the first form (first person simple present, "I know"). So adding in "sciro" might make it easier for readers to find the word in dictionaries. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The citation form is "scio".—Wavelength (talk) 23:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops! Yes, thanks. But I do think it's nice to use citation form in this type of situation. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll at least make that change. Looie496 (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Smoke evacuation

 * brought from Talk:Glossary of firefighting

Hi. I'm interested in finding out whether there is an English term for what I call "smoke evacuation" - the effort of evacuating the smoke and hot gas from the burning site. I am in search for interwiki links for ro:Desfumare, which describes this very process. Thank you.

PS: Please consider leaving me a note on my talk page so I can be notified about the answer. Regards. --Gikü (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there is a technical term for this, but the act of doing something to allow or cause gases to escape from a place is called venting. — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The word is defumigate. μηδείς (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Any source for that? A Google search doesn't seem to turn up the use of the word in the sense indicated by Gikü. — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:35, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I see no dictionary uses. Google gives plenty of medical and chemical defumigators and although many of the references at google books actually mean fumigate, there are plenty that refer to defumigation. When not referring to chemical fumes this almost always refers to cleaning goods damaged by smoke and odors, not removing smoke during a fire. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in The General Principles of Smoke Control. Alansplodge (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * That would be (smoke) ventilation, which would be a different concept, and not what you see when you search google for smoke evacuator either. μηδείς (talk) 01:09, 9 August 2013 (UTC)