Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 30

= December 30 =

Correct word
What is a good (generic) word to describe the initials (or simply letters) that a person might place after his name (for example: John Smith, MD ... or John Smith, Esq. ... or John Smith, Jr. ... or similar). These initials typically signify: academic degrees held; professions engaged in (MD, Esq.); perhaps organizations the person belongs to; licenses held; etc. Is there a generic term to encompass all of these types of situations, where letters follow a name? The words "title" and "suffix" are not exactly what I am looking for. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Most are post-nominal letters. The Jrs. and Srs. are generational suffixes (see Suffix (name)). Esq. can't seem to make up its mind: it's in both articles. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. But I am looking for a common, every day, conversational, layman's term – not a technical, stuffy, "official" word (like "post-nominal letters").  I'd like to complete the following sentence with an appropriate word.  A nun who belongs to the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth follows her name with the __________ of "CSFN".  So, a nun might sign her name as "Sister Mary Jean, CSFN".  I'd like an appropriate word to describe the "CSFN" component of her signature.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You could say abbreviation, but of course that only refers to the fact that the letters are a shortened form of a phrase and says nothing about their position. But that's unnecessary since you are already stating that the letters "follows her name". — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 08:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If "postnominal" is too formal, how about simply "A nun who belongs to the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth adds [the letters] 'CSFN' to her name"? Tevildo (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The genealogy websites that I work with typically just call it "Suffix". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Joseph, you're after a single word for this but I doubt there is one other than the "technical, stuffy, official" term 'post-nominal letters'. In my experience, whenever anyone who does not know the term 'post-nominal letters' talks about them, it usually comes out as 'the letters after their name'.  For example, they'd ask: What letters does a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire use after his name?.  In your example A nun who belongs to the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth follows her name with __________, the most natural ending would be simply 'the letters CSFN', which avoids the issue of what such letters are generically labelled as.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed; plain old "letters after your name" seems to be pretty common - even with the magisterial Debrett's has a Questions on Letters after the Name page. Alansplodge (talk) 15:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "after [the] name" is exactly what "post-nominal" means. It reminds me of Alan King's old joke that he told a lawyer he didn't have a will, and the lawyer warned he could die intestate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Um ... what's the joke? — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That the lawyer told Alan that if he died without a will, then he would die without a will. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a joke? Geez. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 20:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The punch line was, "This legal pearl cost me 50 bucks" (that's in early 1960s money). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, all. So this (below) is how I phrased it in the article Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth.


 * A Sister of this order is identified by the initials CSFN (Latin for "Congregatio Sacra Familia de Nazareth"; English translation: "Congregation of the Holy Family of Nazareth") after her name.

Please let me know of any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or improvements. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't put "CSFN" in bold (I'd use quotation marks instead), but otherwise that looks fine to me. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I placed it in bold because that is the title of the Wikipedia article in which the sentence appears.  The article CSFN is a redirect to Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the article title is "Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth" which is already in bold, so I'd say it isn't necessary to put "CSFN" in bold as well, especially as it doesn't occur in the first sentence of the lead section but some way down. Also, "CSFN" is a mere redirect so I don't think it has any bearing on whether "CSFN" should be indicated in boldface in the article. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Far be it from me to correct a nun in latinity, but "Congregation of the Holy Family" requires that "Holy Family" be in the genitive case—"Congregatio Sacrae Familiae" rather than "Congregatio Sacra Familia"—as Angr pointed out (with sources) in the previous thread on this topic. Deor (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with your correction of the genitive Latin. I made this change in the article.  Thanks for catching that!   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This is called a suffix at the two largest remaining Bell companies, which are among the five largest tech firms in the US. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the assistance above. Thank you! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

How long has that sucked for?
So, now that we've clarified the age of pussy in the sense of female pudenda, I wonder how long people have been saying "that sucks" to mean "that's bad". I was just watching a documentary about the life of Wernher von Braun which included a reconstructed scene (played by modern actors and filmed in the 2000s) that was supposed to take place in the 1940s, in which someone said, "Well, that sucks" in response to some bad news, which struck me as anachronistic, but maybe it isn't. Does anyone know, or can anyone find out, how long that expression has been around? Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Read its origin, and you'll see that it's an extremely vulgar expression that has somehow worked its way into mainstream usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The link says "Slang sense of 'be contemptible' first attested 1971", so I was right in thinking it's anachronistic in a scene set in the 40s. However, the link also gives "Suck hind tit 'be inferior' is American English slang first recorded 1940", so although they wouldn't have said a situation sucks, they might have said a device sucks hind tit (an expression I've never heard). Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I never heard of that one either. Obviously an old, obsolete expression. If you saw that "it sucks" in a film set in the 1940s, then the writer was getting a little careless (or lacking) with their research. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Although it's an interesting point that presumably the dialogue represented German speech, so you could claim that 1940s German was being translated into modern American English - it's a rubbish point but I'm playing devil's advocate here, not very successfully. Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it was a scene taking place in the U.S. after von Braun arrived there. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with older English being 'translated' into more modern English. Hey, Rome Total War has the Romans speaking English with American accents, which is ridiculous, as far as I am concerned (especially because the other factions speak English with native-ish accents).  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  18:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Romans speaking with an American accent? Now, that's just wrong. Watch Ben Hur or other period documentaries: Everyone knows Romans spoke English with a proper British accent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My Latin master (around 45 years ago) once asserted that the Romans of the Classical period spoke with what would sound today like a Yorkshire accent. I have no idea what his authority for that was (assuming it wasn't faecum tauri). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.204.16.14 (talk) 19:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think if it wasn't intended consciously, then it was done unconsciously. America seems to parallel itself with the Rome in many occasions, it's some cultural phenomena. By the way, did the Britons speak with Cockney in RTW? I don't remember.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * They did in Carry on Cleo :-) Alansplodge (talk) 23:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have just checked (by playing as the Britons against SPQR). The Britons speak with various accents, depending on the unit. Some sound Scottish, others Welsh, and some Cockneys, and some Northerners. Interesting considering English wasn't even invented then, let alone dialects of it.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

At least it's less anachronistic than the "OK" which appears in an early scene of the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie... AnonMoos (talk) 07:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As an aside regarding the above aside, "sucking hind tit" isn't an obsolete expression. Y'all just don't hang around in the circles where it's alive and well (usually they (we) stereotypically congregate around trailer parks and NASCAR races). My grandpa used it, my uncles use it and I still hear it frequently used to mean "the runt of the litter" (presumably the derivation of the term), "the blacksheep" (who always gets picked on), something/somebody in last place (in a competition/race/election), etc.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

What Language!?!
Can anyone tell me what language this is? I am possibly going to VietNam in six weeks for work (teaching), and so I decided to look up some stuff on YT to give me some ideas. I saw this one today, and I have no idea what language they are singing. I speak Italian, but I cannot recognize a single word. Does anyone know? KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  20:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you click on the "Show more" link which expands to show the lyrics, a mixture of Italian and Vietnamese? It looks like a nursery rhyme type of song in any case, so nonsense lyrics are to be expected.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, I just did. I didn't notice the link before. Cheers.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  21:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Arabic help for Sudan Civil Aviation Authority
What is the Arabic for "Sudan Civil Aviation Authority" that appears in this SWF file? http://web.archive.org/web/20131204055052oe_/http://www.acc-sudan.com/flash/left_flash.swf http://www.webcitation.org/6MGJV6ZIW

Also what is the Arabic in the SWF that means "Air Navigation Centre" (ANC)?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "Sudan Civil Aviation Authority" would be الهيئة العامة للطيران المدني.

"Air Navigation Centre" would be مركز الملاحة الجوية Hia10 (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 23:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)