Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 7

= December 7 =

17th century French: "Tracy"
Can someone translate to English the sub caption for this map of western New France (lower right corner)? What does "TRACY" mean, here? Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Les nations de Tracy "the Nations of Tracy". I do not know what it means, maybe something connected to him.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Oh, I see. So, its a list of "nations": (seemingly odd, that the other two, Illinois and Iroquois, are native tribes). Can you make out the rest of it, "people" and so forth? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * A nation is "[a]n historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture" (Wiktionary), so it is not uncommon to find "tribes" of people referred to as "nations". Note that some of the aboriginal peoples in Canada are termed "First Nations". — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 16:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not find it odd that they are listed as nations, but that Tracy was among them, but it looks like there is an answer for that below. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of moving that page to reflect his full name, which up till now failed to include the Tracy part we're discussing here. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's an early-18th-century book that lists the "Nations de Tracy" among various native tribes ("diverse peoples in Canada and Louisiana"}. The map you're inquiring about shows them as inhabiting a rather extensive region around the western Great Lakes, but I'm having trouble finding further mentions of them under this name. Deor (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Most helpful. Yes, it looks like the "Nations de Tracy" are around western Lake Superior; the "Nations de Ilinois", around Lake Michigan; and the "Cinc Nations" Iroquois in the east on this map. Thx. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's probably "Cinq Nations", meaning Five Nations. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the transcription: PARTIE OCCIDENTALE du CANADA ou de la NOUVELLE FRANCE où sont les Nations des ILINOIS, de TRACY, les IROQUOIS, et plusieurs autres Peuples ;

Avec la LOUISIANE Nouvellement decouverte etc.

Dressée sur les Memoires le plus Nouveaux.

Par le P. Coronelli Cosmographe de la Sér.[énissime] Repib.[lique] de VENISE Corrigée et augmentée par le Sr.[sieur] Tillemon ; et Dédiée À Monsieur l'Abbé BAUDARD À PARIS

Chez J.B. Nolin Sur le Quay de l'Horloge du Palais Vers le Pont Neuf à l'Enseigne de la Place des Victoires

Avec Privilege du Roy

1688 Translation a little later if somebody does not outrun me already.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * With regard to "Ser.", see the first bulleted item in Most Serene Republic. Deor (talk) 17:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added your transcription to the image file. Very helpful. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The nations of Tracy are apparently simply the nations living around Lake Superior, which was first named by the Jesuits "Lac Tracy", according to our article Lake Superior. According to this source, the Jesuits named the lake after "Monsieur de Tracy," apparently Alexandre de Prouville de Tracy.  So Lüboslóv's conjecture seems to be correct.  Marco polo (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, that might also help explain "Ilinois" then, as that was also an early name for Lake Michigan. Thanks, Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the translation: The Western part of Canada or the New France where the nations of Illinois, of Tracy [Lake Superior], the Iroquois and many other peoples inhabit.

With recently discovered Louisiana

Drawn according to the newest reports

By P. Coronelli, a cosmographe of the Most Serene Republic of Venice

Corrected and augmented by Sir Tillemon. And dedicated to Monsieur abbot Baudard

[Printed at] J.B. Nolin in the Quai de l'Horloge of the Palace across the Pont Neuf under the sign of the Place des Victoires

With the privilege of the King I am not sure about the line Chez J.B Nolin..., it looks like an address. Espesially I doubt what means à l'Enseigne de la Place des Victoires as the place is far away from the Cité.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you have got that line more or less correct. Chez means "at the office or place of business of", and in 17th-century books and documents it was common to refer to a place by its "sign" (I assume this refers to a signboard), presumably because at that time there was no numbering system for buildings. Thus, the line suggests that J. B. Nolin had a business along the Quai de l'Horloge which was marked by a signboard with an image of the Place des Victoires on it. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 17:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Just say the word
Something I've often wondered about:

If it takes more than just saying "I insult you" to insult someone, or "I kill you" to actually kill someone, or "I hypothesise" to wax hypothetical, why is "I apologise" or "My apologies" considered sufficient for an apology, or "Congratulations!" sufficient to congratulate someone, or "My condolences" sufficient to express one's sorrow? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * See speech act, and specifically performatives, which are things like "I hereby declare you man and wife" or "I dub thee Sir Jack". This is actually an important topic in philosophy and linguistics. Steven Pinker goes on about it in various places. μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Your examples have legal meaning (in some contexts), but JackofOz's examples normally just inform someone of a feeling the speaker already had. "I apologize" doesn't make the speaker regret their action, "congratulations" doesn't make the speaker happy for the listener, etc. JackofOz's question doesn't seem like a linguistic question to me. It's a sociological question about what insults, apologies, etc., actually are, and really it belongs on the humanities desk -- BenRG (talk) 12:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It reminds me of when people write to newspapers etc saying "I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about [something or other]", to which my response would be: "well, go on then". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Kind of "polite anger", which Monty Python used to satirize from time to time. "I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about that last sketch. Many of my friends are lumberjacks, and only a few of them are transvestites..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Of course this being Wikipedia the act of typing "I insult you" on a talk page is going to be considered a person attack and involve a trip to WP:ANI. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The statement "I insult you" as a standalone comment is not an actual attack. It's like the standalone statement "I am lying", which likewise means nothing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting question. What if I said, "I hereby insult you"?  That might actually be insulting, and a good line for Steve Martin or John Cleese. μηδείς (talk) 18:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good one. Or taking it a step further, "I am hereby issuing you a legal threat." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Another Monty Python reference: "I fart in your general direction". Just saying those words does not have the same effect as doing it.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:45, 12 December 2013 (UTC)