Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 12

= February 12 =

Kanji elements
Hi,

1. Are the bottom right element in 疑 and the bottom element in 是 variants of the same thing or are they etymologically different? 86.167.124.198 (talk) 01:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

2. Same question for the left element in 疎 and the left element in 政.

86.167.124.198 (talk) 01:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * For your first character, see this page, for your second, this page. You can see that the first character originally had 止 as an element, while the second had 正. For your third character, this source did not have the seal script form, but the same element appears in this character. Finally, here is the seal script form of your fourth character.  All of these elements are versions of 正 or 止. As you can see, 正 is itself etymologically derived from 止, so all of these elements are related.  Marco polo (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Japanese names.
I'm writing a short story that requires two Japanese boys to play a game together - I need names for them - but I have no idea what would be both common and yet distinctively Japanese-sounding. In English, I'd think of maybe Ed and Eric...something reasonably common like that.

TIA SteveBaker (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * List of most popular given names has some ideas for you. -- Jayron  32  04:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (EC)Generally, in Japanese stories, the characters have names which reflect something that will happen in the story. For example, in the Manga "Gallery of Fear" there is a story about a little boy who falls from a tree and becomes comatose, but has a dream that he becomes like a tree, growing leaves and all. It's an incredibly sad story, because as it turns out, he was in a vegitative state and nothing could be done for him, but he was happy (and hence the dream of becoming a tree). The name given to him in the story was 'Daiki', which means 'Big Tree'. If you can give us more information on what these boys are doing, we could give you some ideas for names which may be more appropriate. Alternatively, you could call them Ichiro and Jiro, if they are brothers and one is older than the other (Ichiro means 'first born son' and Jiro means 'second born son', but they are actually used as names. 'Taro' means 'the other one' (or 'the fat one' depending on the Kanji). Or you could take your pick from here.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  04:59, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well...it's complicated...but not very deep...
 * Check out the story of Eric and the Gazebo (I can't believe we have an article about that!). Two guys are playing Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) - Eric encounters a "gazebo" and believes it to be some kind of a monster.  Ed (who is running the game) tries to explain that it's an ornamental garden building...but to no avail.  This story has resonated with the D&D community over close to 30 years!
 * My g/f runs "Renaissance Miniatures" - she makes model buildings for D&D players in the US, UK and Australia. As a joke, she made a "limited edition" Gazebo model (and a "rampaging gazebo" that has transformed into the very monster that Eric feared) and these models sold amazingly well and brought a lot of new customers to her Kickstarter.  So, now she's making a new range of models styled for Samurai, Ninja and such like games.  She wants to make an oriental 'analog' for the gazebo and the "Eric and the Gazebo" story.  So, I was thinking about making a story with a Japanese theme and match it with the Eric story plot-point-by-plot-point.  The gazebo would be replaced by a torii (or perhaps something with less religious overtones) - and to stick with the Japanese theme we'd rename the two guys in the story with Japanese-sounding names.  I think that if I do it just right, our customers will initially be taken in and will believe that they're reading about a monster - then laugh when they slowly realize that just as Eric had never heard of a "gazebo", they'd never have heard of a "torii".  She'll sell a bazillion torii models and then rampaging torii and so forth - everyone will be amused and she'll make a buck or two.   Hopefully members of the shinto religion can take a joke don't do the fatwā thing! SteveBaker (talk) 20:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I will see if I can come up with something, but I must say, Torii are so ubiquitous in Japan (there was one at the kindergarten I worked at, and indeed at many schools) that everyone in Japan knows what they are. It might be better to choose something a little less well-known. Why not try the mokugyo? This is a wooden fish used in Buddhist temples as a drum when chanting 'namu amida butsu'. Not many people know about them - only people who visit the temples. Also, don't worry about it having more or less religious overtones. Most Japanese consider Buddhism and Shinto to be a cultural thing, rather than a religious thing. Most Japanese will only visit a Buddhist temple at New Year or at funerals (besides sightseeing), and most only come into contact with Shinto when having the land for their new house blessed, or at weddings (or, again, when sightseeing).  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:36, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Marc Ouellet
This is the man who, according to bookmakers, is the favourite to become pope. I'm wondering about the pronunciation of his last name. According to this page both pronunciations [wɛlɛ] and [wɛlɛt] are possible for this surname, so it depends on each particular family. Ideally, we would need an instance of him pronouncing it himself. 64.140.122.50 (talk) 06:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It sounds like wellay. I am terrible at IPA, but I'll try: /wɛlɛ/  --Lgriot (talk)
 * What are you basing your answer on? 64.140.122.50 (talk) 09:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I am a French native speaker and all the names of my friends or celebrities that I know of, which finish in "-et", are pronounced without sounding the t. If a French word or name finishes with a single t, don't pronounce it (some exceptions are loan words, of course). Basically, like the words forêt, octet, et, cabinet, agnelet, duvet chalet, etc, I could go on forever, or names like Grillet, Martinet, Jacquet etc. Names in French are not pronounced differently from other words. And in French words or names finishing in "et" are pronounced ɛ as a rule. But Canadians may do something different from the French, they can after all do whatever they like.  --Lgriot (talk) 13:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * On Radio-Canada news, there are several related stories. The video "Cardinal Ouellet - Reportage à Second Regard du 9 octobre 2011" has several different people saying the name, all enunciate the "t" more or less clearly. (Fair warning, there's a commercial advert before the story runs.) Lgriot is correct, fr-ca is quite distinct from fr. LeadSongDog come howl!  14:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'm from Quebec, and I've only heard it with the final "t" pronounced, which is the standard pronunciation for what is a relatively common French-Canadian last name. --Xuxl (talk) 14:13, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies, then, my answer was not useful. You guys in Quebec, are you mad? Do you think French does not have enough exceptions as it is? only joking Anyway the Quebec media must know better, so I would go with them. --Lgriot (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Given the lack of a diacritical mark over the first "e", I would think the first "e" would be pronounced as a schwa rather than as /ɛ/. Is that not right? Duoduoduo (talk) 15:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because it's followed by a double consonant. Compare ferai and ferrai. --ColinFine (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all your answers. I'm now convinced that in the case of Marc Ouellet, the t is pronounced. This will be something for French people to get used to if he becomes pope. But the page I linked to above says: "Le phénomène est observé également dans les noms propres tels que Chabot, Ouellet, Talbot, Boutet, où l'on a souvent des doublets sans / t / et avec / t /, sans que la forme avec / t / prononcé ait une connotation populaire." For the Canadians here, what is your reaction to this statement? Which of these names have you heard pronounced with or without a t? The answers so far seem to indicate that you haven't ever heard Ouellet without a t. 64.140.122.50 (talk) 18:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Chabot and Talbot are pronounced in Quebec both with and without the final "t", although the pronounced t is more common. In the case of Ouellet, the final "t" is always pronounced. Many of these last names exist with spelling variations that double the final t and add an e, making the pronunciation unambiguous (Blanchette, Ouellette...) --Xuxl (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Nobody will have to get used to it, if he becomes Pope, because he'll go by a different name! :) 86.163.209.18 (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the world suddenly became very familiar with the name Karol Józef Wojtyła in 1978, and reporters all struggled manfully and womanfully with those weird Polish letters, even though by then he'd already become Pope John Paul II. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right! 64.140.122.50 (talk) 03:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all these points. The BBC will have to change their pronunciation then, as they've been saying his name "Ooo-ell-et"! --TammyMoet (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I am used to hearing the names Ouellet and Talbot in English, where the final Ts are definitely pronounced...Colonel Thomas Talbot, for example. "Ouellet" always seems to be pronounced "oo-let". Adam Bishop (talk) 02:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Maxime Talbot comes to mind for me. 64.140.122.50 (talk) 03:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Having first heard "French," while singing Alouette (song) as a child, not surprised that someone would pronounce the "t" in Ouellet :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that is because there is this "e" after the tts ;). I hear a lot of Quebecquois French while watching TV5, and I agree with Lgriot....to hear the t pronounced is rather strange to my ears. Lectonar (talk) 23:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

"aa" in German
Hi,

There are several words in German with a double a (eg Saal, Staat, Haar, Paar, Saat). They seem strange to me, and I have the feeling that there aren't commonly homologues in English. Firstly, is there any truth to this feeling, and second, do they have the same Germanic root as other German words?

Cheers,

Aaadddaaammm (talk) 09:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * German Staat is homologous to English 'state', Paar to 'pair', Haar to 'hair', Saat to 'seed' and Saal to 'salle' (though the latter is rather uncommon). - Lindert (talk) 14:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I think "aa" is a less-used spelling for "ah"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * AnonMoos is correct that aa is just an alternative spelling for ah. Why some words have one rather than the other is usually a historical accident. Words with aa are not in a special category. Marco polo (talk) 15:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * See also this difflink. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Vowel length is indicated in German by different means (see de:Dehnungszeichen). Putting an (otherwise unpronounced) h after the vowel is the standard. Doubling the vowel is not longer used, but persists in many words and names. A third possibility used in olden times was to put an (otherwise unpronounced) i after the vowel. This continues only in names, like Grevenbroich . --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Du kannst mich mal
In German, "Du kannst mich mal" ("You can ... me") is a widely used, quite offensive insult. Most Germans know it's short for "Du kannst mich mal am Arsch lecken" ("You can lick me in the arse") but the actual verb part is omitted for the sake of brevity or appearance of an euphemism (which, given the insult's popularity, doesn't actually do much in the matter). Is there a similar construction in English, where you can leave out the actual verb part of a well-known phrase? J I P &#124; Talk 18:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In the New York area, at least, there is "Yo motha" ("Your mother..."), which suggests an insulting statement about a person's mother, such as "Your mother's a whore", without actually making the insulting statement. These days, it is more often used jokingly.  Marco polo (talk) 19:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) I can't think of any. Omission of the main verb in a clause with an auxiliary verb used to be common in English, especially with motion verbs, e.g. "I shall away" = "I shall go away", but now I'd say it's literary or archaic. Another example is John Masefield's poem Sea-Fever: "I must down to the seas again" (but in some editions it is normalized to "I must go down"). In German, können is commonly used that way in other contexts as well, e.g. "Ich kann Deutsch". Lesgles (talk) 19:50, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The closest I can think of is "Up yours!" by which the implication is "Up your ass!" but the ass part is left off.  -- Jayron  32  19:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * For the benefit of non-native speakers, ass is American English for arse. Marco polo (talk) 20:11, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've always wondered if the British "arse" is considered less crude than the American "ass". Anyone know? Duoduoduo (talk) 20:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. By the way, did you know Mozart wrote a song called (in English) "Lick out my arsehole"? If I'd have known that at school I may have paid more attention! --TammyMoet (talk) 20:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * From my UK persective, "arse" is more crude. 86.160.209.200 (talk) 20:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The opposite is true in the US, "arse" sounds almost more funny than rude. People might think it was a deliberately distorted minced oath trying to avoid the 'truly rude' ass, like using darn for damn. μηδείς (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * WHAAOE. Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber, Leck mich im Arsch, Difficile lectu (Mozart) and Bona nox. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Entirely subjective (though probably no more or less so than any of these assessments), but "ass" doesn't strike me as a particularly strident insult; I find it's often used in a jocular fashion or to describe someone who is simply acting in an asinine manner as opposed to being truly deplorable. "Asshole" seems to me to be the more emphasized variant for when you truly want to voice your distaste for someone. But I don't find either "ass" or "arse" to be more biting than the other; perhaps that's a result of my having lived on both sides of the pond, but I suspect it has more to do with the fact that they seem to me to be used, both semantically and syntactically, in a largely identical fashion in their respective linguistic cultures.  Snow (talk) 03:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * As 86.160.209.200 said, in UK polite company, "ass" can be used to refer to the animal (and usually is), as in "behave like an ass", but, traditionally, the word "arse" would never be used in front of "ladies". ( Yes, I know that "polite company" cultures are believed by some to be dying out in the UK, but the general principle is still valid in the UK, even if some modern cultures ignore it. )   D b f i r s   09:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The word has been known to cause ladies to faint. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  09:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "Traditionally" perhaps, but I assure you I heard more than one woman use the word herself in the time I lived in the U.K.; of course, it's always possible that reflects more upon me at that age than the general prevalence of the word. ;) But all joking aside, this is clearly something that varies between social circles and individuals considerably, but I just can't imagine any but the stodgiest folk taking issue with the word.  Now there's another culture which uses the word with the frequency of an indefinite article, but at the risk of appearing to be embracing a stereotype I'm not going to say exactly who and I'm not looking at anyone, certainly not at anyone down or under anywhere else.  But uh, clearly off topic now, so I'll leave it there.  Snow (talk) 03:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Back to original question, it's not ommiting a verb, but in New Zealand English, one can use half a simile. Eg. Instead of saying "that was as quick as a fox", the saying "that was quick as" can be used, implying that it was as quick as something that is quick, but it's not necessary to think of something in particular. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 11:00, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * As in Beached Az. Alansplodge (talk) 15:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * A phrase used by British sergeant majors is "Get your finger out!" meaning hurry up. They never have to say exactly where they want you to get your finger out of, but everybody knows. There is a famous WWII photograph of the prison in Rangoon, after the departure of the Japanese, but before the arrival of the Allies, Operation Dracula. The prisoners-of-war had written a sign on the roof, "JAPS GONE - EXTRACT DIGIT". Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There are a few constructions that allow copular verbs to be omitted, but they typically have fairly restrictive contexts in which they can be used without causing ambiguity. Consider, for example, "no need" as concatenation of "there's no need."  But these typically brief statements are usually responses to inquiries and usually constructed on the fly and thus very different animal from the type of established, partially idiomatic phrase the OP referenced from German.  There is a method for the same kind of sentiment in English which is not commonly used these days but which I believe would be recognized by most; one can omit the offensive verb and insert a non-linguistic utterance or noise in it's place. E.g. "Oh yeah? Well you can just [short double-whistling sound] yourself."  I'm sure there are plenty of other standard phrases where the verb is readily omitted in English which are not coming to mind, but this usage I feel is the one that comes closest the euphemistic/hedging tone employed in the German example. Snow (talk) 03:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Concepts or meaning outside of the scope of the English language
Hey guys, I am preparing a presentation for work about conflict resolution with the rough draft title: "Lost in Translation". Basically it's supposed to be about how the underlying root of a conflict can be lost or muddied in the discourse between employee/coworker/customer. I want to work a couple of things into the presentation to make it more interesting, and I have some ideas, but I need your help finding info about a couple of things: Bottom line is that I am just having trouble figuring out the correct search parameters to research these two items, so I've come to you. Sorry for the long post, but any reference material or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I reformatted my post to be less of a wall. Ditch &#8733; 22:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) First, there was a game we played as children where you get a line of people. The first person in line whispered a sentence to the next person, and then so-on-and-so forth down the line.  Assuming you have enough people in line, by the time it got to the last person, the sentence almost always changed significantly, sometimes completely loosing the meaning. What was the name of that game? I'd like to do a little research before I try it out in a room full of people.
 * 2) Second, I'd like to introduce my presentation with some examples of words in non-English languages that express concepts the English language does not have a word for. For instance, I remember reading that many languages have a word for the "meaningful glance exchanged between two former lovers."  The English language doesn't really have a word for that, at least not one I can think of.
 * To answer your first question, the game is usually called "telephone" in the United States, but our article is Chinese whispers. Deor (talk) 22:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You might want to look here. You could also use a cultural angle instead of words; 666 can be divided by 3 in both the US and China, but only the Chinese consider 666 lucky. Please don't use "words for different kinds of snow". I can only hope Randall is reading this topic. . Joepnl (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It might be easier to talk about distinctions not made in English: kinship terms yield many examples. For example Japanese has different words for 'older brother' and 'younger brother', while Swedish distinguishes 'farmor' (father's mother) from 'mormor' (mother's mother) (and AFAIK has no common superordinate word). --ColinFine (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Finnish distinguishes between setä (father's brother) and eno (mother's brother) but not between aunts. They are called täti despite which parent's sister is in question. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many systems of kinship terminology which are exotic from the English point of view. Quite a few languages of "tribal" societies use the same terms for "parallel" cousins (father's brother's children and mother's sister's children) as for brother and sister, and the same terms for "cross" cousins (father's sister's children and mother's brother's children) as for brother-in-law and sister-in-law... AnonMoos (talk) 19:35, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * This is where my profound knowledge of the Fuegian languages finally comes into its own. I've been waiting for almost a decade to be asked this. :)  One of the Fuegian languages has the word mamihlatanapai, the shortest English translation of which is "looking at each other hoping that the other person will do something that both parties want but neither is willing to do".  It made the Guinness Book of Records as the most succinct word in any language.   --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  00:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an article "Mamihlapinatapai".—Wavelength (talk) 01:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I once read about words meaning "The praising of the bad side of the desire of finding a home is right" and "Aren't you of the people we were told were impossible to Czechoslovakianise?", but I forget which words they were and which languages they were in. J I P  &#124; Talk 06:17, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Your second example is usually quoted with making Turkish because the language where this is a single word is Turkish. Hans Adler 06:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I would suggest you read the article on inclusive versus exclusive we, a distinction many languages make but which English doesn't (at least not usually and not without effort). Then you can tell the joke about the two linguists in the jungle.  One linguist says, "The good news is the chief says he looks forward to tonight's celebratory feast, he is sure we will all have a good time."  The second linguist replies, "What's the bad news?"  The first linguist says, "He used the exclusive we." μηδείς (talk) 02:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

2) Schadenfreude is one of my faves. StuRat (talk) 06:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the most untranslateable Polish word is the verb kombinować. It is obviously a cognate of the English "combine", but means "obtaining something, getting something done, making ends meet by any means possible (honest or not)". Examples: Skombinuj mi palnik acetylenowy. "Get me an oxy-fuel welding torch (I don't care, if you buy it, beg, borrow, steal or root in a scrap yard)." Ona chyba coś kombinuje. "I think she's up to something." Nie wiem jak to zrobimy, ale coś wykombinujemy. "I don't know how we'll do it, but we will find a way." — Kpalion(talk) 09:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Schadenfreude is translated to Finnish as vahingonilo, pretty much a direct translation from the German word. It's a very common Finnish word and idiom, and thus I am fairly certain the German and Finnish concepts are similar. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The french word "chez" has no direct analogue in English. It is often translated as "at the home of", it functions equivalent to the English noun "home", but in French it is always a preposition.  -- Jayron  32  13:37, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In English it seems to be exclusively used at the start of the name of a fancy restaurant. StuRat (talk) 15:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * That's because English seems to have a sense that French words classier than their English equivalents. Thus "Chez Pierre" sounds classier than "Peter's Home", though they mean exactly the same thing.  Just like "pâté" sounds classier than "meat spread" and "vichyssoise" sounds more refined than "potato soup".  -- Jayron  32  18:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * To be pédant, vichyssoise is traditionally served cold so the term is more than just a fancy replacement for "potato soup". Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the dishes my Mum used to make when I was growing up was Bacon and Egg Pie. I later learned that chefs regard this as one variety of quiche. I later still learned that "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche", but that's never stopped me, I have to say.  In my hypothetical future career as a restaurateur, people will attend my establishment, where they'll be offered Bacon and Egg Pie.  Some patrons will be overheard to say, "But that's just a fancy name for Quiche".  And I will smile seraphically, as is my wont.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Jack, your comment brought back memories of the days before "foreign food", when Bacon and Egg Pie was a much more solid and meaty dish than its modern equivalent.   D b f i r s   23:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Sehnsucht, Heimat and Saudade. --Viennese Waltz 13:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * And terroir. Bazza (talk) 14:38, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Gemütlichkeit. --jpgordon:==( o ) 07:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Muvaffakiyetsizleştiricileştiriveremeyebileceklerimizdenmişsinizcesine. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 03:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)