Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 15

= February 15 =

Secular variant of Legalism (theology)
Is there a secular variant of the theological concept of Legalism? I think the term would be very useful to describe someone who has a black-and-white mindset, a merciless personality, a self-righteous holier-than-thou attitude, and a heavy emphasis on good behavior rather than on personal, subjective thoughts to achieve good behavior, even though achieving good behavior may be tough and thus mercy may be needed to recognize that one is faulty and change direction. I know I am talking about a religious concept, but I wonder if there is a secular variant to describe this phenomenon that seems to occur in any kind of human, regardless of whether they are atheist or theist. How does one describe this phenomenon in psychological and sociological terms? 140.254.227.58 (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In Christianity, "legalism" is a somewhat insulting term, not a theological school. You can see Legalism (Chinese philosophy) for a group which embraced harsh punishments... AnonMoos (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Whereas Legalism (Western philosophy) is something quite different. Personally I don't think the name "Legalism" for the Chinese philosophy is an apt translation.--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Legal positivism might be more accurate for what OP is asking. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Attorney, lawyer, lawmaker?
What is the difference between these terms (attorney, lawyer, lawmaker, politician, congressperson, statesperson)? 140.254.227.58 (talk) 21:20, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends on the country, but basically a lawyer and an attorney are the same thing; some countries, especially Commonwealth countries, have a "divided" legal profession between barristers and solicitors, while others, like the U.S., have a "fused profession" with only one kind of "lawyer". A politician is somebody who serves in political office.  A lawmaker is a legislator.  A congressperson is a specific politician who is serving in a congress, which is the name of the legislature in some countries, for example the United States Congress (in the U.S., however, congressperson or congressman is often reserved for members of the House of Representatives; though the Senate is also part of congress, its members are called Senators).  A statesperson is a synonym for politician, though the aphorism about statesmen (attributed to cartoonist Berke Breathed) is  "A statesman is a dead politician".  -- Jayron  32  21:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What is the aphorism supposed to mean? 140.254.227.58 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of 'statesman' being a synonym for 'politician'. A 25-yr old fresh-faced idealist who's just been elected to his first term in a sub-national legislature and is a long way short of having even a Wikipedia article let alone national, let alone international recognition, is in no way a statesman.  True, most people accorded the label of 'statesman' are current or more likely former politicians, but the reverse doesn't apply.  It's usual that 'statesman' is what some politicians are seen to become after they leave active politics and then start making timeless quotations that get into all the books, about what we should all be doing to make the world a better place even though they rarely practised such advice themselves when they were in active politics and had the power to make a difference.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That reminds me of the Karl Marx, who I learned from English class as teaching others how to live without living it himself, versus Andrew Carnegie, who actually has lived the life to prosperity and gained the wisdom to teach about it based on experience. 140.254.227.58 (talk) 21:59, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm rather surprised at an English class teaching what appears to be a moral or philosophical claim about Marx's life and teaching. AlexTiefling (talk) 03:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally speaking, a politician is held in low regard, whereas a statesman is held in high regard. Retired politicians are sometimes referred to as "elder statesmen".  I'm guessing that the aphorism relates to people speaking highly of the deceased (in obits, etc.), but when they were a living politician, they might have expressed the opposite opinion. ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * By Jayron's definition, I think attorney, lawyer, lawmaker, politician, congressperson, statesperson can be used as terms to describe a person who is elected to serve in the House of Representatives as a House member, while holding a doctoral degree in law, thereby practicing law in politics. 140.254.227.58 (talk) 22:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really. Each of those things is separate and not interchangeable.  It would apply only if the one person in your description performed all of those roles at once.  A politician is not necessarily a lawyer, and not even always a legislator (ie, not currently elected to an office).  And they aren't likely to be practicing law while serving as a Representative, at least on a national level. Mingmingla (talk) 03:22, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Did you read Jayron's answer properly? 'Attorney' and 'lawyer' are different to all the others, in that they are not political positions, but roles within the legal system. While it's possible for all of these terms to relate to a single person, that's got nothing to do with what the terms actually mean. Could you clarify your request, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 03:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Jayron left out the punch line: Lord knows, we need more statesmen. --Trovatore (talk) 06:36, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought the punchline was, "And St Peter says, 'I don't know - you're the first lawyer who's ever ended up here'." --Shirt58 (talk) 07:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC) Esq.