Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 18

= February 18 =

Ruslan and Lyudmila
I don't know whether this belongs here or on the Humanities desk, but the previous discussion raised another question: In Pushkin's/Glinka's story of Ruslan and Lyudmila, did the evil lecherous (and treacherous) dwarf Chernomor who kidnapped Lyudmila have anything to do with the evil god Chernobog from pagan Slavic mythology? Or is the name just a coincidence? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The article that you linked says that Chernobog means "black god", with the cherno- part corresponding to "black". Chernomor redirects somewhere not obviously relevant to the story you're talking about, but it seems a reasonable inference that that name also has "black" in it.  Other than that, better wait for a Russian scholar. --Trovatore (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * No scholar but I have some information. The черно- (cherno or chorno) part of a word always means black (and it has slavic variants: Carl Czerny = Charles Black).  In a neutral context, –мор (mor) is from морe (mo-re), sea, i.e. Chernomor relates to the Black Sea.  For example, a sailor from the Black Sea Fleet is a черноморeц (Chernomorets).  I checked черномор in Russian WP, and I get a disambiguation page, where the options are:
 * the character from Ruslan and Lyudmila (but his name is not mentioned in their article on the story)
 * the name of four airships
 * a town
 * Tatyana Chernomor, an artist.
 * No mention of Budyonny horses or any kind of horse. However, here is confirmation that the Budyonny horse was developed by cross-breeding the Don horse with the Black Sea horse (Chernomor). So, that means our redirect is misleading, as the Chernomor is still a separate breed from the Budyonny, if not unrelated to it.


 * But what does all this have to do with the character Chernomor from the story by Pushkin? Well - and I’ve only just learnt this from doing the research - while морe (mo-re) means sea, мор (mor) means widespread death.  Chernomor in the context of this story means Black Plague or Black Death, and that's confirmed here.  Checking the Russian version of Black Death, we have Чёрная смерть (чёрный мор) - Chornaya smert' (chorny mor).  So, Chernomor is definitely an evil character, and he and Chernobog (Black God) both have Black in their names, but otherwise I can't see any significant links between these two.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  08:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice work! --Trovatore (talk) 08:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I am very doubtful that Pushkin, despite being a very well-educated person, thought about Chernobog while writing his poem, as everything we know about Chernobog is from Western Latin manuscripts which quite likely were little known for general public in Russia in those times.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow! I never even made the connection between Pushkin's story and the black plague until now -- I always thought that the name "Chernomor" was derived from the Black Sea!  Thanks a million to everyone, and ESPECIALLY to Jack of Oz! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * My pleasure. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  08:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

ἔδει μὲν γὰρ τὴν δι᾽ ἐναντίας
What is written here? thanks --84.110.34.60 (talk) 17:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Google translate gives "edei by hand against the gar". I'm not sure how useful that is.  Rojomoke (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This is apparently from a papyrus written by somebody named Annianus, which can be found in full here, and the best I can do is "truly binds the opponent" -- the "opponent" perhaps being a reference to Satan (I don't actually read Greek, so I'm guessing). Looie496 (talk) 18:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "τὴν δι᾽ ἐναντίας" refers to the opponent in the dispute (see LSJ A.2.c in the entry). The "ἔδει" is the common idiom "It is necessary (for)" So the clause is something like "For it was necessary for the opponent..." Then there is an intervening participle cause, which describes the situation of the opponent, and a conditional clause, then "ἔτι μᾶλλον δ[ι]αγωνίσασθαι καὶ ἐκδικῆσαι τὰ τῆς παιδός" says what it was (conditionally) necessary for this opponent to do (to struggle and to avenge). You might be able to add "while" or "on the one hand" or something like that for the "μὲν", to set up the "δε" as "but" later on. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

thanks. I do not understand the part γὰρ τὴν δι᾽; ἔδει + gen (ἐναντίας = sg.gen.f) but what is the function of τὴν = sg. acc.f -I guess that δι= διά so it's mean through it - maybe its refer to δίκη --84.110.34.60 (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * τὴν is the "the" in "the opponent". "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας" is a set phrase meaning an opponent in a lawsuit (LSJ A.2.c for entry ἐναντίος). The article feminine because the opponent would seem to be a female. Hence also "τῆς ἀντιδίκου" above, which has the same meaning, "the opponent" or "the defendant". -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

oh you mean that she is one from the opponents, thank you--84.110.34.60 (talk) 20:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me be clearer: "τὴν" does not apply to "ἐναντίας", but rather is just part of the set phrase, "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας". The whole phrase "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας" means "the opponent", so the whole phrase "τὴν δι' ἐναντίας" also means "the opponent" but is just feminine and accusative rather than masculine and nominative.  "τὴν" is feminine because the opponent is feminine.  "τὴν" is accusative because the idiomatic ἔδει phrase can take an accusative object (which ends up being translated in English with an indirect object (e.g., "it was necessary for her to struggle"). I'm not even sure if ἐναντίας is genitive singular or accusative plural.  It doesn't really matter though, because it's a set phrase.
 * So, from "Ὡριγένης νεώτερος" to "καὶ ἀποσπ[ᾶ]":
 * Horigenes the Younger said: "I demand to have the case given to us for Friday." Ammonius the Orator said: "There is no need for my books for this present case, for an examination will make a display, both from the witnesses and the things done by the defendant, so that she might not have the case set aside [for another day]. But concerning what I plead, I shall teach briefly. For while it was necessary for the defendant, having opposed her aunt and, in course, taking up the side [of her mother? with us], if anyone was harming her, to struggle ever more and to avenge the matters of the child, for it is the aunt who is neglectful, the father's sister, she defrauds and [diverts].
 * The "ἀποσπ[ᾶ]" (from ἀποσπάω), which I give as "she...diverts" might be some legal term of art, but I can't figure out what it would be. That part "τῇ τάξει μ[ητρὸς(?) τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ] ὑπάρχουσαν" I find hard to decipher. I guess "taking up the side" because  "ὑπάρχω" can mean this. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Arabic help
Hi! At what is the Arabic in the images http://www.mem-algeria.org/francais/images/entete-bg-gauche.png and http://www.mem-algeria.org/francais/images/entete-bg-droite.png? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It says "وزارة الطاقة و المناجم". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Adam :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:26, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Which means "Ministry of Energy and Mines" (the French translation is right below). --Xuxl (talk) 10:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)