Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 7

= February 7 =

Alumni - only graduates?
Does the term "alumni" refer only to people who graduated from an institution or to all people who had ever been a student there? Roger (talk) 20:22, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I too wondered about that recently, while writing the article on Gimnazija Mostar. I decided to seperate the graduates from the rest, just in case. Surtsicna (talk) 20:28, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Personal opinion, but I think it implies that you completed your degree. Claiming that you're an alumni of an institution that you spent a few semesters drinking your way through a 0.5 GPA seems a bit pretentious.  If you didn't get your degree, you can say you have attended said school, but you're not an alumni without a framed certificate with nice gold leaf and big signatures on it.  -- Jayron  32  20:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Nitpick alert: an individual is an alumnus (m.) or an alumna (f.). --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless they are British, then they are aluminium with the extra i... -- Jayron  32  00:00, 8 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In the US, anyway, alumnus conventionally implies a "graduate", although the root merely means "pupil" or "foster son/daughter", hence the term "alma mater" or "foster mother" for the university one graduated from. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Usage may differ in the UK. For example, I consider myself an alumnus of the polytechnic where I did my degree, but not of the other 3 universities where I did post-graduate (but non-degree) qualifications. However, the only institutions to go out of their ways to keep in touch with me are the 3 universities... --TammyMoet (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure that "alumni associations" are happy to take your money whether you graduated or not. Alumni newsletters often report former students with degree and year, say "BS 1984" or "Ph.D. 1998", and you will sometimes see "Ex 2001" for the year a student left without a degree.  (That is of course a different question from the one Roger asked.)  --Trovatore (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Poking around google a bit, it seems that "alumnus" is also used to mean someone who once attended a school, graduated or not. I would say that usage is less common. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * @Trovatore - Do such newsletters usually distinguish between the "dropuots" and the "genuine" alumni, or does it simply report on them together with the graduates. Roger (talk) 07:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, they distinguish by reporting the person as "EX " instead of "BS " or "PHD ", but other than that, no. Right now I'm specifically thinking of Caltech's alumni newletter &mdash; my other school, UCLA, is a little too big to be giving everyone's personal news. --Trovatore (talk) 08:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite clearly, "alumnus" doesn't imply "graduate". If you consult any dictionary, you'll find something along the lines of "a graduate or former student of a school" as a definition of the word. - Nunh-huh 07:40, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * For a lot of speakers it actually does imply that, regardless of what dictionaries say; we see examples of this right here. I actually started to wonder why many dictionary definitions and my own usage diverge so much, and I determined that since I do not personally know of anyone who has dropped out of college, and all the famous people I know of who have done so are referred to as dropouts because it is sensational to do so&mdash; does anyone refer to Bill Gates as an alumnus of Harvard rather than as a Harvard dropout?&mdash; I've simply had no opportunity to read or talk or think about dropouts as alumni. So I never do. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 08:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Our article on Harvard University mentions Bill Gates as an alumnus, and I expect that they were glad to recognise him as an alumnus when he gave them millions!   D b f i r s   08:28, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Is someone who starts a degree at one university and completes it at another an alumnus of both or only the latter? Roger (talk) 11:00, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say the latter, because they're the one that gives them the qualification and the piece of paper. People might generally be able to get credit for previous studies undertaken elsewhere, but those studies are thereby treated as if they were studies undertaken at the new institution.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  11:25, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically, former. Colloquially maybe not.  In the former case you probably need a fuller explanation (or asterisk). Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make sense to me, Mr Walker. Can you explain this "technicality"?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just that alum also has broader connotations than graduate, although it is often used as a synonym. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, so a person could claim to be an alumnus of both A and B. I read your comment that they could claim A only.  Whereas, if they had to pick one and only one, I believe it would have to be B.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:25, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, no. Sorry if I was unclear. By former, I meant both, because the question was "both or only the latter". Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:01, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I latterly see that your former comment meant both the former and the latter but your latter comment did not mean just the latter as my former and latter comments meant. I'm glad we sorted that out.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

In actual practice here, we list everybody who attended a given school as an alumnus thereof. Just because Bill Gates didn't get a degree at Harvard, or Frank Lloyd Wright at University of Wisconsin-Madison, does not mean that these schools were not important in shaping their lives. (I certainly regard myself as an alumnus of all the schools I've attended, not just the ones that gave me degrees.) Unless the category is Graduates of School X, rather than Alumni of School X or School X students, I think we should continue to do so. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  15:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It cannot be stressed enough, in light of Orange Mike's answer, that the OP is asking about general English usage, not the (sometimes idiosyncratic) usage specific to Wikipedia. These are non-overlapping concepts.  That is, the practices here at Wikipedia do not necessarily reflect the common understanding of a word like "alumuni/a/ae/us".  The fact that Wikipedia has a particular practice does not mean that other definitions are invalid, and the existence of those other definitions does not prescribe those usages to Wikipedia.  -- Jayron  32  15:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent point, Jayron! -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  15:32, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia usage aside, the OP's question does not make it clear whether the OP is asking about official usage or idiomatic usage, because the two could differ. In my experience, "alumnus" (etc.) is used idiomatically equivalently to "graduate", or even "degree recipient", whereas universities and other educational institutions typically adopt a wider usage. Alumni associations are usually happy to admit and/or claim people who attended even if they did not graduate, or graduated without a degree. Especially if the person in question (1) has money or (2) is famous or otherwise prominent in their field. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking at OED Online, I see that the oldest meaning of the term was "A male pupil or student attending a particular school, university, or other seat of learning". However, this usage is now marked "obscure". The contemporary meaning, "orig. U.S.", is "A former pupil or student (typically male) of a particular school, university, etc.; a graduate of a particular seat of learning". A note states: "The singular alumnus almost always refers to a male, but the plural alumni is often used to refer to graduates of either sex." That suggests to me that the contemporary meaning of the word definitely excludes current students, but could refer to former students who have graduated from the institution as well as those who have not. (The note is a bit puzzling because it refers only to graduates.) — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:41, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The "note" is almost unnecessary &mdash; this is standard for words of Latin derivation that have masculine and feminine forms. If you have a mixed group, you use the masculine plural.  So I wouldn't read too much into the fact that the note is restricted to graduates. --Trovatore (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Texas Exes. Duoduoduo (talk) 18:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Short answer - the usage varies, so check the context carefully. American colleges and alumni associations seem to be more likely to recognise non-graduates as alumni than institustions in other parts of the Anglosphere. Thanks Roger (talk) 11:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)