Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 January 12

= January 12 =

French translation of tablet
What does this say exactly? Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you give Google Translate a try? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You can't translate it exactly. That's impossible. This illustrates an example of why.  The best you can do is sense-for-sense or word-for-word, but neither would turn out identical in English.  Any way, here's my attempt:
 * In tribute to Guillaume Cartier born at Drain, February 19, 1684. He emigrated to New France in 1684 and he was engaged as miller of the Neuville Lordship near Quebec. He married Marie-Etriennette Garnier and they had 7 children.  He died at St-Francous-du-Lac May 31, 1719. Association of Cartiers of America
 * Not the best translation, but you wanted exact, so i left some of what I felt were oddities in. Mingmingla (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A few spelling errors: Marie-Étiennette Garnier, St-François-du-Lac. For lordship (seigneurie), see Seigneurial system of New France. Lesgles (talk) 02:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Those were typos, not spelling errors. I also knew that it was Seigneurie, but it illustrates my point about exact translation: the only way to know exactly what it says is to learn and understand French.  Everything else is just the gist. (I also not that I completely missed the line about him being the son of Julien.  My bad.) Mingmingla (talk) 03:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I provided as literal a translation as possible at the file itself:. μηδείς (talk) 01:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC) Thanks for the translations.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Side discussion

 * I don't believe those spelling errors are in my translation at the image's file, but you could check for me. I retained Seigneurie de Neuville because the term lordship really isn't used that way in English--but I am not personally familiar with Canada/Quebec, so perhaps it should be changed if "Lordship of XXX" is encountered. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * We just say "seigneurie" in English too, in this context. This is Neuville, Quebec, by the way, now basically a suburb of Quebec City. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:12, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As I suspected, since I have heard of seigneuries before, but not lordships in that sense. μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There are Lordships in English as well, i.e. Lordship of the Isles, Lordship of Ireland, Lordship of Mann. -- Jayron  32  02:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but those are hardly townships, which is more at the sense here. μηδείς (talk) 02:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * True. I think in this case Seigneuries would better be translated as "Manors" or something along those lines.  A French Seigneur is closest to the English Lord of the Manor.  -- Jayron  32  04:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case the word is uncommon but used in English and any simple translation would be forcing it. A simple blue link to Neuville from the file page to Neuville, Quebec would be good.  Can anyone show here in nowiki how to make piped links from wikimedia to a wikipedia article?  μηδείς (talk) 05:40, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What language is that question written in? And what does it mean in English?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  07:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You know I usually answer your questions in good faith, mister. So if you really are confused a short question on my talk page will work.  And I do find wikipedia fun enough to provide my services for free.  But not fun enough to guarantee a reeditting of my first draft if spell check doesn't catch anything.  You got a bad one: "show how" became "shore ho". Spellcheck didn't catch it, so doing free work myself, I wasn't getting paid to catch it either.
 * It's not like my point was actually that unclear if you applied effort. It's up to you guys if you wanna answer it. μηδείς (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, the one responsible for making the effort is the writer. Further comments on your talk page. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  12:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Since that question makes perfect sense to me, the answer is Neuville . Adam Bishop (talk) 12:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Adam. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Michigan
I saw a scene in a TV programme in which there was some confusion over the place that a group of American vistors were from. One of the Americans said "There's a world of difference between 'Michigan State' and 'Michigan', and we are definitely from Michigan." What did she mean by that? Was she referring to one of the places called Michigan City? 86.129.18.113 (talk) 01:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Without knowing the context, my guess would be that they're talking about Michigan's two main universities. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * i.e. University of Michigan and Michigan State University. They have an enormous rivalry, naturally. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, when I searched Google I noticed that most relevant links were about the universities, but I ignored those because it did not seem to fit the context. They seemed much too old to be students, for example. I suppose they could have been staff, but I did get the impression that they were referring to their hometown (or, generally, place that they lived). If there's no other explanation then perhaps I misunderstood what they were talking about. 86.129.18.113 (talk) 01:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe they were alumni? For big schools like that with big rivalries, former students will identify with them for the rest of their lives. If you went to a football game between those two schools, the stadium would be full of people like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Update: later in the scene, when it's been established that they are from "Michigan", someone says to the Americans "Right, where there's a wine area called the Old Mission Peninsula, is that right?", and they all agree. So they can't be talking about the university, can they? If someone came from the State of Michigan, and someone suggested they were from "Michigan State", is there any reason why they would correct this and say no, they were from Michigan? Could "Michigan State" have such a strong association with the University that they understood it to mean that, rather than the actual State? 86.129.18.113 (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds to me like they are punning. But you would have to know of the intense rivalry and that "Michigan" is also used for one University, and "Michigan State" for another to get that (but everyone from Michigan -- of even the US -- would get that). In short, if you ask someone from Michigan if they are from Michigan State, their first thought would be of the school.  Alanscottwalker (talk) 04:18, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * New York State is the only one of the 50 states that I have ever heard of by itself referred to as XXX State, because of the contrast with NYC. Otherwise, myself never having been there, I would interpret what was said as meaning exactly what Bugs said. μηδείς (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think it can mean that, for the reason I mentioned. I'm suggesting now that the distinction is between "Michigan State" = Michigan State University and "Michigan" = State of Michigan (i.e. geographical area). 86.129.18.113 (talk) 02:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it can very well just be a contrast between the state itself and the state university. I've never been closer to there since Pittsburgh in my childhood, so someone else will have to opine. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The only one, Medeis? Washington, the state, is often referred to as "Washington state", for obvious reasons.  And in places like Wikipedia, we have to talk about Georgia (U.S. state).  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you're right about Washington--I didn't think that far north west. But people don't say Georgia State, while they may say the State of Georgia. μηδείς (talk) 02:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Washington State is the oddball because of that cesspool sharing the same name. Any other xxx State almost always refers to the state university, whereas Washington State rarely means Washington State University. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * As a Michigan resident, I can confirm the conclusions reached above. That is, "Michigan State" always means "Michigan State University", while "Michigan" normally means the state itself, but, in the context of universities or football, means the University of Michigan (where my brother works, BTW). StuRat (talk) 02:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

"-ise" or "-ize"?
Some verbs ending with "-ise", like fertilise, personalise, etc., are written in American English as ending with "ize", like fertilize, personalize, etc. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yashowardhani (talk • contribs) 07:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Both "ise" and "ize" endings are used in British English, in fact the Oxford English Dictionary follows Fowler's advice in using only the "ize" ending for most of these words (though it includes a cite of "fertilise" from as early as 1760). The British rule used to be: if the ending came from Greek then use "ize" but if it came from French, use "ise".  Unfortunately, this doesn't always work (e.g. personalize is from French).  During the past 50 years, the fashion has changed in the UK, and many schools now teach students to use only the "ise" ending for all words.  American educators take the opposing view, but the difference is not just British versus American.    D b f i r s   09:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oxford spelling... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. Can you also tell me whose use will be more proper? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yashowardhani (talk • contribs) 13:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends on where you are. If you're in America and spell it "fertilise", you'll immediately label yourself as a foreigner. Elsewhere in the English-speaking world, probably not. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It is a serious error to assume that, of three writing styles - one used throughout the USA, one through most of the UK and the rest of the Anglosphere, and the third endorsed by the largest, most academic English dictionary in the world - any usage could justly be 'improper'. Choose the version which will suit your audience best. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * If you want to be "proper" worldwide, use the "z" spelling because this is standard in America and accepted throughout the rest of the world. Some people in the UK will (wrongly) think that these spellings are American, others will consider them dated, and others will note that you are using the correct "Oxford spellings".  For most words, the "ize" spellings will not be considered "improper" anywhere in the world, so you cannot fairly be criticised [sic] for them.  Be careful, though, because there are some words that must end in "ise" in the UK (advertise, affranchise, apprise (to inform), chastise, circumcise, comprise, compromise, demise, despise, devise, disfranchise, disguise, emprise, enfranchise, enterprise, excise, exercise, franchise, improvise, incise, merchandise, premise (verb), prise (to force open), reprise, seise (law), supervise, surmise, surprise, televise).  I haven't yet checked which of these have a "z" in American English.    D b f i r s   17:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Dbfirs is correct. His list can easily be explained by the fact that words he lists that don't use -ize don't derize from the Greek ending.  The suffix -izein in Greek is used just like the Latin derived -ify.  It is added to a noun or adjective to mean the transformation into that type or state.  To pulverize is to make into a powder, etc.  The other words come from different stems and have different etymologies.  To surprise, from the French, is to "over" (sur) "take" (prendre)--not "to make "surp".  To in-cise is to "cut into", not "to make inc-".  The endings -mise "put, -vise "see", prise "take", cise "cut" and so forth will not take a z. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * None of those words normally has z in American English. —Tamfang (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * To me, you should use "ize" if there's a "z" sound in the suffix, and "ise" otherwise. I pronounce just about all such words with a "z", so the "ize" spelling makes sense to me.  Ironically, those words I do pronounce with an "s" sound seem to be spelled "ice", like "artifice". StuRat (talk) 18:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah pronunciation has got nothing to do with it. --Viennese Waltz 19:26, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Stu's theory would have us spelling 'otherwise' as 'otherwize', but that seems strangely immune. Logic would also seem to dictate we go the whole hog and spell it 'utherwize', and also spell 'to', 'should' and 'use' differently (too, shood, yooz/yuze), according to their actual pronunciations.  Any takers?  ....  No, I thort not.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * But what would Americans know? They can't even pronounce "z" correctly. HiLo48 (talk) 21:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to "zed", I must quote Bruce Willis: "Zed's dead." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:27, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Jack – We could go one way and spell things as they're pronounced, or we could go the other way and spell things based on their etymology. If we went the whole hog, the first would give us 'surprize' and 'shud' while the second would give us 'surprendre' and 'sceolde'. I know which one I'd prefer! If dictionaries offer more than one spelling, I go for the more phonetic. ~Asarlaí 21:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As opposed to 'prendre', the Old-French origin of "prize". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want a language that is written as it is pronounced, Hindi or other indic languages will be the best. In these languages, one letter can be pronounced in only one way. So you know exactly how to pronounce a word even if you're seeing it for the first time.


 * Meihem! —Tamfang (talk) 04:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * One thing that I see quite frequently is an IP editor changing an -ise ending to an -ize ending in article about a UK or Australian topic, with no Edit summary. It's obviously a good faith edit, but done in ignorance of both WP:ENGVAR and WP:EDITSUMMARY. I suspect that in most cases it's also done in ignorance of the fact that American spelling is not the only way. I'd like access to a diplomatically written template that addresses all three issues. My responses tend to vary depending on the particular mood I'm in at the time. (I'm not always perfect.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:17, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Jezus effing kreighst. What stupid effing nonsense. This is the ref desk and we should attempt to give referentially helpful answers before we masturbate in public. Forgive me. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That's way much more than we need to know about your personal life. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Make that "kryst". :-) StuRat (talk) 01:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)