Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 January 7

= January 7 =

Eragrostis = lovegrass : why that name ?
Hello, Learned Ones !

First, all my best wishes for 2013 to all on Ref. Desk, & especially to those who care to answer my (sometimes pointless ) questions on "Humanities", «Miscellaneous», «Language», "Computers" etc... My question : while enjoying an ethiopian meal and smearing my new pant with red sauce dribbling from the teff made injera crèpe, I wondered what the Agrostis genus has to do with love. Is it because some of its seeds clings to furs or dress ? Thanks a lot beforehand for your answers. T.y. signé Arapaima (can’t log in, I’m staying in a hotel) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.164.0.32 (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No one knows the reason for the name—at least according to the last paragraph of the description at the top of this page, though some suggestions are reported. The English name "lovegrass" is obviously derived from the first suggested etymology. Deor (talk) 07:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Why does "unsafest" sound wrong?
Wiktionary accepts it, but it still doesn't sound like a "real word" to me. Is there an underlying "unwritten rule" of allowed English wording that I'm subconsciously applying here? 23.30.218.174 (talk) 16:05, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, see this section above. The rule for comparatives (-er for one syllable words and "more" for longer ones) applies to superlatives too (-est for one syllable words, and "most" for longer ones). So that is why "safest" but "most unsafe" sounds the most correct. - filelake shoe  &#xF0F6;   16:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * However, that rule doesn't explain "unhappiest", "unluckiest"... AnonMoos (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW I question the premise. "Unsafest" sounds perfectly fine to me. Firefox's spellchecker likes it too. Angr (talk) 10:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Horses for courses, Angr. You can't really question when someone says that something doesn't sound right to them, as the OP did.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the underlying issue here is that we don't like to define things by negatives. We don't say "that was ungood" or "that was the unbest meal I have ever had."  For example, "He is unmasculine" does not mean "He is feminine."  So while the terms might make sense if we force them to, and they have acceptable syllabic forms, "most dangerous" is positive and unambiguous while "unsafest" is in effect a double negative. μηδείς (talk) 05:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A double negative can be the most unkindest cut of all. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:21, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Subject, class, course ?
I'm a non native speaker of English, and struggling to comprehend the way the different subjects are described in secondary school ("high school") in the UK and the US. For instance, what would a student say, if he/she wanted to express his dislike of a certain subject (such as mathematics) : "I've always hated this subject/class/course" ? Or, how would a teacher describes what he/she is teaching : "in the subject/class/course that I teach the student are more interested than in mathematics ?" Thanks for your insights ! 80.13.10.56 (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, in London 40 years ago, we would have said "lesson" - for example, "What lesson have you got next?" answer; "I've got history next." "Subject" could also have been used but not "course" or "class". However, school jargon has changed over the years, I'll see if I can find a younger person to ask. Alansplodge (talk) 19:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's still the same for UK usage. I don't think many of our younger generation have yet picked up the usage of "course" and "class" from American TV.  "Subject" and "lesson" still predominate.  "Class" means the set of students being taught.    D b f i r s   09:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In the United States, the first sentence would be "I've always hated this subject" if the speaker is referring to mathematics as a whole. If the speaker means that he or she hates trigonometry as it's being taught this year by a particular teacher, then the speaker would say "...this class".  Your second sentence is a bit ungrammatical, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.  If you meant to write "Students are more interested in the subject/class/course that I teach than in mathematics", then in the United States, any of those three could work, depending on what the teacher means to emphasize.  If the teacher says "subject", then she (let's assume she's female so I don't have to keep typing "he or she") means that students like the field that she teaches better than mathematics, apart from her specific curriculum for that year or her teaching style.  If the teacher says "course", then she means that students like the curriculum that she is teaching that year (and possibly her teaching style) better than mathematics.  If she says "class", then she is implying that students like a combination of her teaching style and content.  In the United States, a subject is a discipline or a field of knowledge, such as mathematics.  A course is a curriculum unit within a subject. For example, 11th-Grade Trigonometry would be a mathematics course. Finally, a class is a group of students taking a course under a particular teacher. I think my information is up to date because I interact with teachers professionally.  Marco polo (talk) 19:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I live in the Midwest US, was in high school 7 years ago and just finished college. Most often for both, I think I've just heard "I hate calc/psych/rhetoric/etc." With "I hate this X," "class" is what I'd expect to hear, but it's ambiguous between the topic, the teacher, the assignments, the students, or some combination ("I hate this class. It's interesting but no one takes it seriously." "I hate this class, I don't get stuff fast enough.") "Subject" is less common and maybe a little formal, but less ambiguous. I wouldn't expect to hear "course" in high school, just in college. With "lesson" I'd assume they're talking about that day's particular combination of topic and approach. Lsfreak (talk) 20:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree 100% with Lsfreak about the United States, particularly on students' language. While secondary school students rarely refer to "courses", however, teachers sometimes do.  Marco polo (talk) 01:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you all ! --80.13.10.56 (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Spanish
I'm a Spanish student, I have a hard time understand this sentence: "pero cómo me les iba a ir si todos de la casa querían que fuera a la escuela." I'm more concern with the part "pero cómo me les iba a ir". What les means? I learn that it would mean something that "to them" or "to you" (many people). If I translate it by myself, it would read "but how I leave to them to go", doesn't make sense to me. 174.20.35.57 (talk) 23:18, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure there's not an infinitive verb or some other word missing? Les means "to them".  Irse means "to leave" as in "to go away" but it doesn't take an object, indirect or otherwise. This sounds like a bad google translation with either an extra word or one missing. μηδείς (talk) 03:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick search of Google Books shows that the sentence is taken directly from a book called Y no se lo tragó la tierra, written by Tomás Rivera and Evangelina Vigil-Piñón. It is apparently written in the narrative voice of a Chicano boy. Looie496 (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems to make sense - literally "But how was I going to leave them if everybody at home wanted me to go to school" but more idiomatically, "how was I supposed to leave, seeing as everyone at home wanted me at school". Context. He is not literally asking but expressing that it would be improbable that he would try to leave the school, since everyone at home (where he would presumably go if he did) expected him to be at school, in response to the previous sentence "...Y el barrendero todo asustado con la escoba en el aire, listo para aplastarme si trataba de irme." (and the janitor, all scared with the broom in the air, ready to come down on me if I tried to leave) 72.128.82.131 (talk) 04:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Still doesn't make sense to me... I know he is not actually asking a question, it works the same way in English like that. I thought "fuera" means "away or out of" then how can you translate it to "my family want me to be in school?" And I don't get the usage of the word "les", why it is not "to them" or "to you" (many people)? Let do an example: "Yo se (original is les) lo doy" would be translate as "I gave it to them." Why is "me les iba a ir" mean I leave them? It looks like it should be "I leave to them". Explain in detail please.Pendragon5 (talk) 23:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * So he is a Chicano? Mexican(?) speakers like to make verbs reflexive when the standard European spanish verbs are not. It has a certain sense of 'I was made to ' or 'I decided to' or I myself .eg. me iba=> I (decided to ) to go(I went, a Spaniard would just say Yo iba or iba). The les(answering your question) seems to complement the 'todos'=>everyone.e.g. 'me les =>'everyone wanted me to .., which complements todos de la casa querían. You translated 'Como' here as 'seeing' (correct).--Jondel (talk) 04:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I think les here refers to the school principal and other people in the office who are contemplating a punishment for the narrator. @Pendragon: Be careful! Fuera here is not the preposition as in out, but the imperfect subjunctive of ser ir. Querer que governs the subjunctive but since the piece is written retrospectively (i.e., in the past tense) the imperfect subjunctive is used.
 * Jondel makes a good point, that in Mexican Spanish (and many other Latin American dialects), there is a little "looser" use of indirect object pronouns than in Castilian Spanish, not only where a physical receiver of the action is involved but also when you want to specify (vaguely) who is being affected. The same thing happens in English: you say, "I gave her the book" and 'her' is an indirect object even though it is not "to her" (though you could also say "I gave the book to her" which just illustrates the pitfalls of attempting to draw a one-to-one correspondence between languages). The verb is irse, to leave - don't even think about the me, it is an idiomatic usage. Me les iba a ir means "I was going to leave them". Personally I would have used dejar which is a little more formal but avoids the multiple pronouns. 72.128.82.131 (talk) 01:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Odd, I have never come across irse with an object. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I still have huge problems with this. First, fuera here is obviously the past subjunctive of ir, not ser.  If "to be" were meant it would be estuviera from estar, not fuera from ser.  Second, even if we accept les as the indirect object, the expected form would be "pero cómo les iba a irme si todos...", not "pero cómo me les iba a ir si todos".  Do we have a secondary source for this odd construction? μηδείς (talk) 05:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thats my bad; it is ir and not ser. As to the construction, my perception of Latin American Spanish speakers (granted, primarily Puerto Ricans) is that they prefer to keep pronouns together, and though I am not a native speaker, "pero cómo les iba a irme si todos..." sounds extremely odd to my ears. 72.128.82.131 (talk) 23:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)