Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 July 3

= July 3 =

101
What does this American phrase mean? I see it quite often on the internet. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  00:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Assuming you mean, what does "101" mean, it refers to the first catalog (freshman) level of a course in most US universities. E.g., I hated math and never studied past Calculus 101. (Urban dictionary gives no other meanings). μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis, how do you know you hated math? Sounds like you never took any. --Trovatore (talk) 10:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I studied calculus up to series. The next step would have been linear algebra, which I did not take.  I actually find the concepts fascinating (like whether series converge), but the work tedious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs) 22:13, 3 July 2013‎
 * That's exactly what I was getting at. Sadly, the American educational system (and I'm not sure it's any different anywhere else) doesn't teach any mathematics before linear algebra.  It teaches algorithms, learned by rote.  By that time, that's what almost all students are used to, and learning mathematics is virtually impossible for most of them.  It's an absolute crime.  Google "a mathematician's lament" for an excellent analysis. --Trovatore (talk) 22:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So it essentially just means 'the basics', really? This is what I suspected. Cheers.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * See also 101 (term). ---Sluzzelin talk  00:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Often used to describe something that should be common knowledge or basic skill (e.g., "You shouldn't have talked on your first date about how you're not over your ex yet; that's dating 101!") r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 07:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to be confused, of course, with Room 101. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That is exactly why I was confused, Tammy. Well spotted!  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to be confused with Room 101 (TV series) or Room 101 (radio series). Or Room 222, for that matter.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  00:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jack. It was actually the TV series I meant. I hadn't clicked on Tammy's link before I posted my reply. I think I should review RefDesk Posting Protocol 101, then :)  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * [Any subject] 101 means beginner level. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Need ref showing term cholo used as an insult in English
Can anyone provide a source showing that the word cholo is used as an insult in English? In other words, an example where the word might be used along the lines "I told them n*ggers and cholos get outta my store", instead of parallel to "dude"? An example where the usage itself is a slur, not just a rude sentence in which the word is used sarcastically? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 00:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you accept usage in fiction? Brando Skyhorse has an African American person shout "Fucking cholos go hunt for black people! You wetbacks been trying to kill us up and down these streets." in The Madonnas of Echo Park. Stephen D. Gutierrez, in Live From Fresno y Los, has someone (couldn't see who, or whether it was meant to be in English or Spanish originally, since all I got was a snippet) saying "We started small, 'Hey what's this shit, man?' and then advanced on him, 'Fucking cholo, stupid ass' whistling through our teeth [...] " ---Sluzzelin talk  01:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's been a while since I lived in San Diego, but I've never heard "cholo" used except as a slur, and a pretty strong one at that, whether in Spanish or in English. Savvy English speakers used it to refer to extremely low-class Mexicans, usually involved in crime. Not-so-savvy English speakers used it as a general slur for Mexicans in general. Certainly not a word I would call a Mexican friend, even joking around. I've never heard it used as a parallel to "dude". Check the last post on this forum for an example: []. Type in "cholo stole" into Google for plenty more. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll gladly accept that information. I have never heard it used as an insult in the East.  Never heard wetback here either except from fiction or for effect. μηδείς (talk) 01:31, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's probably because the predominant Hispanic populations in the greater NYC and New England area are Caribbean Hispanic populations, especially as Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, whereas in other parts of the U.S. (save Florida), people of Mexican populations predominate. The slurs and insults and other similar terms differ for different groups, both in Spanish and English.  -- Jayron  32  13:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The word is used by characters in two English-language novels: as an insult to a bullfighter in The Bridge of San Luis Rey, set in Peru, and as an insult to a Latino domestic in The Long Goodbye, set mostly in Los Angeles.--Hors-la-loi 18:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Given names (male from female)
This is a set of three closely related questions. —Wavelength (talk) 03:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In the name "Mario Monti", is the male given name "Mario" derived from the female given name "Maria"?
 * In the name "Evo Morales", is the male given name "Evo" derived from the female given name "Eva"?
 * Besides these two examples, what male given names are derived from female given names?
 * According to Mario (given name), the name is derived from Latin Marius, which in turn is derived from a family name Maria (see Maria (gens)). Almost certainly unrelated to the woman's name Maria, which I think is derived from Hebrew Maryam. --Trovatore (talk) 03:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's certainly totally unrealted to Maria. And Evo is totally unrelated to Eve. It's the Spanish form of Yves. See Ivo of Kermartin. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I may have to backpedal a little bit. Maria (given name) claims that the feminine name (not "female name" please; what are the gametes of a name?) is also derived from the name of the gens, but that the name of Maryam (mother of Yeshua) was responsible for making it popular.  (BTW Maryam is apparently Aramaic rather than Hebrew.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If Maria came from gens Maria, it would be pronounced Mária, just as Mário is. Similarly, if Mario were the male form of Maria, it would be pronounced Marío. Djbcjk (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * See Miriam, the prototype. --Dweller (talk) 10:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Once again, here's a previous ref-desk thread. Deor (talk) 14:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

For cases in other languages, there's Greek Panayotis (Παναγιώτης), from Panagia (Παναγία), the title of the Virgin Mary (although Panagia itself is not commonly used as a female given name; the female equivalent would be Panayota). Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Grrr. Feminine name.  Names have gender.  People have sex. --Trovatore (talk) 19:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't this addressed recently? 'Gender' is perfectly valid as a qualifier of people. For example, the British Succession to the Crown Act 2013 says 'gender' rather than 'sex'. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If the UK parliament wants to adopt this barbarism, I can't stop them. --Trovatore (talk) 20:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you wish to accuse the Mother of Parliaments of 'barbarism', arguing with their choice of words is a damn funny place to start. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Barbarism in the linguistic sense. A barbarism is by definition a question of choice of words. --Trovatore (talk) 07:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * " With no accepted technical meaning in modern linguistics, the term is little used by descriptive scientists." No argument here. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it's not a descriptive claim. It's a normative one.  This is a bad usage and it needs to be stopped before it gets entrenched. --Trovatore (talk) 07:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * AlexTiefling, please see my article The mother of parliaments (expression). --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Trovatore, I considered using the adjectives "masculine" and "feminine" at the outset, but I decided, without consulting any dictionary, to use the adjectives "male" and "female". Some dictionaries support my use of "male" and "female" (http://www.onelook.com/?w=male&ls=a and http://www.onelook.com/?w=female&ls=a).  Google has many search results for male name and female name.  Google Ngram viewer has results for female name,feminine name,male name,masculine name.  The Wikipedia article "Given name" (version of 21:42, 28 June 2013) refers to female names and to male names.  However, I acknowledge that, in this context, "masculine" and "feminine" are more suitable than "male" and "female". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wavelength (talk • contribs) 20:50, 3 July 2013‎
 * Certainly the terms male name and female name are attested. To me, though, it just sounds like, when a male name and a female name love each other very much, why, that's where nicknames come from. --Trovatore (talk) 21:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * People have both gender and sex, and they're not always the same. Names are applied to people of certain genders and, in languages other than English, can also have grammatical gender, and again, the two don't necessarily match. (For example, the German nicknames Hänschen and Lottchen are both grammatically neuter but are applied to male- and female-gendered people respectively.) If you're talking about which human gender the name is applied to, it's better to say "male" and "female" to prevent confusion with grammatical gender. Back to the original question, although Mario is not etymologically derived from Maria, it is often treated as if it were, e.g. Mario Montessori who was named after his mother Maria Montessori. I can't think of any male given names derived from female given names, unless they came by way of surnames. For example, McBride is (rarely) a male given name; it comes from the surname McBride which comes from an Irish surname meaning "son of Brigid". Angr (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Only biological organisms can be male or female. Names are not, so they can't. --Trovatore (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Names can refer to biological organisms. It is perfectly reasonable and correct to call names that typically refer to male people (and animals, for that matter) "male names" and those that typically refer to female people and animals "female names", just as we call names for dogs "dog names". That doesn't mean the name is a dog, it means the name is for a dog. Angr (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, using "female" as a noun, and then applying it appositively? A little strained, but possible, I suppose.  For me, I'll continue to just say "man's name" or "woman's name" (or "boy's name" or "girl's name" as the case may be). --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why should the words "male" and "female" be uniquely immune from the appositive? I've never seen that those specific words, among all English nouns, are disallowed from that construction.  Indeed, I'd say it is rather common to do so.  I've never heard the claim that the appositive doesn't apply to those specific words, and it seems very natural and common to do so. -- Jayron  32  22:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, it's possible, I suppose. But it means you're using "male" and "female" as nouns, which (in addition to having a bit of a harsh sound in most contexts) is not what I would have thought of when hearing "male name" or "female name".  It sounds as though you should be able to put it in the predicate-adjective position, *The name John is male. --Trovatore (talk) 22:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Mario Lanza derived his stage name from his mother's maiden name, Maria Lanza.  Also, the name Catharinus is not unknown.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

preposition problem
"They often appear in newborns to 6 years of age" - Is the use of "to" correct here or is "through" more proper?121.247.79.53 (talk) 05:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "They often appear in children up to 6 years of age" Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. 'Through' in contexts like this, although common in American English, is confusing in an international environment. (As a British English speaker, I find myself expecting that 'A through B' should be followed with '...and on to C'.) By the way - why 'of age' rather than 'old'? AlexTiefling (talk) 07:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, to me, "through" is American, and not common elsewhere. As an Australian I am quite comfortable with the initial form. It seems you have encountered one of those expressions that varies depending on whose form of English you're using. HiLo48 (talk) 07:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In principle, through could be used here in American English, but it's not common. The more normal phrasing would be up to, as DV says. --Trovatore (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Up to 6", to my ears, sounds like whatever it is they're talking about stops at the end of the child's 5th year. Is that the intention? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I read it as an inclusive thing, like "Massive sale, today only, discounts up to 75% off marked price". That means that, while some items might attract a discount of less than 75%, others will indeed be marked down by the full 75% (at least until the early birds snap them up).  A person who is a day short of their 7th birthday is still considered a "six-year old" for most purposes, unless otherwise indicated.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's how it's often used, yes. If I say I have a meeting from 2 to 3 in the afternoon, it doesn't run through the entire hour after 3 o'clock, but stops at 3. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're mixing apples and oranges. The statement says "up to six years of age", not "up to the sixth birthday". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Once you've reached six, the next day you're a day older than six, and so on. If you go up to a door, does that automatically mean you also go through the doorway? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone born between 5 July 2006 and 4 July 2007, both dates inclusive, are considered to be six years old as at today. Any statement that includes "up to six years of age" will apply to all of these people, not just to the ones who are turning 6 today. It's only in special contexts that extraneous days figure in the issue at all, and I'm sure you know that.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  01:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I find a statement reading "up to age 6" to be ambiguous. Probably something to do with schooling. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You may find the etymologies of "to" and "through" interesting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Verein für Deutsche Kulturbeziehungen im Ausland
The page Verein für Deutsche Kulturbeziehungen im Ausland describes the organization but doesn't translate the name to English. What would be a close (literal) translation? -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Association for German cultural relations abroad". Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Ȑȑ
Double grave accent notes that the characters Ȑ and ȑ are used in certain western Slavic languages, along with Ȁȁ, Ȅȅ, Ȉȉ, Ȍȍ, and Ȕȕ. Why would a consonant like R be given this accent? 2001:18E8:2:1020:8C30:A6BE:F890:A67 (talk) 13:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently, Croatian linguists use these accents to denote some type of tonal accent. Since /r/ can be a syllable nucleus in Croatian, it is plausible that a syllable formed with /r/ could also be the carrier of such a distinctive intonation curve, so there might well be occasions for marking an accent on them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, the Slavic languages mentioned in the article are all South Slavic languages, not West Slavic languages. Angr (talk) 21:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I browsed through a limited set of samples on Forvo, and I sort of found a minimal pair for rising and falling accents on /r/:
 * Word vrba 'willow' is pronounced by a Slovene speaker, but in Croatian terms, it would be a short falling accent, and accented as vȑba. Note the quite audible [ə] preceding the [r], which often overtakes the phonological role of syllable nucleus. (In Serbo-Croatian, the same word will actually have the short rising accent). The 'short falling' is actually near-identical to a normal pitch accent.
 * Word Brna (village Brna) is pronounced with short rising accent (Br&#768;na). The [ə] is audible here as well; the difference from vrba is that the pitch remains high on the second syllable. This type of accent is, I guess, more alien to non-native speakers. No such user (talk) 06:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)