Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 21

= March 21 =

Opposite of "on behalf of"?
Is there a term to convey something against a person? What I mean to say is that the term "on behalf of" means to "in someone's interest". But what if something unpleasant or undesirable is made for another person?

1. An anonymous benefactor donated a large sum of money on behalf of the poor children at the orphanage.

2. The masked bandit stole a large sum of money ____________ the poor children at the orphanage. 65.24.105.132 (talk) 01:39, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Despite or regardless of if they are not taken into account, in spite of if if harming them is the intent. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Intended for" or "earmarked for". Clarityfiend (talk) 02:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * at the expense of, to the disadvantage/detriment of 86.171.43.66 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * OP, I'm not sure your first example is quite in accordance with standard use of the term "on behalf of". If the poor orphanage children wanted to give some money to Charity X, but didn't have any money to give, and the anonymous benefactor stepped in and donated the money to Charity X in the name of the poor children, that would be him doing it "on behalf of" the children.  But merely giving the children some money is not doing anything "on behalf of" them.  It has the connotation of representing another party, not necessarily directly benefiting that party.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That's strict;y correct, Jack, but at least in the US, it is now often used to mean "for the benefit of". μηδείς (talk) 02:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that enlightenment, Medeis. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/on+behalf+of and http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_behalf_of. Personally, I use "on behalf of" in both the "for the benefit of" and "as a representative of" senses, and "in behalf of" is completely alien to me. 86.171.43.66 (talk) 03:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * If the bandit actually wanted to harm the children, then "targeting" would be a good term to use. If the bandit didn't care one way or the other, then I'd say "harming".  I'd also put a comma before both words, in that sentence. StuRat (talk) 03:18, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with a simple "to" or "from" in the original sentences, as appropriate? Is the use of "on behalf of" with two conflicting senses as common in America as the M-W link claims?  Wiktionary has some usage notes about the "on"/"in" variation, but it misses the full picture.  I've never heard "in behalf of" used in the UK (except by Shakespeare and Macauley), though the OED claims that it still means "in the interest of".  If I heard "on behalf of" used to mean "for the benefit of", I would misunderstand the speaker (or assume that the speaker had misunderstood the phrase), but the OED claims that it is so used "to the loss of an important distinction".  I wonder if the OP was prompted to ask because of Shakespeare's usage: "And rob in the behalfe of charitie" (in Troilus & Cressida).  This is an obsolete sense meaning "in the name of", distinct from Jack's modern interpretation where the charity actually benefits.   D b f i r s   08:39, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

"Robin Redbreast"
I was curious about this name, as I've never seen a robin with a red breast in the UK, except on bad Xmas cards. So I looked up our article (European Robin) and found the following:
 * The distinctive orange breast of both sexes contributed to the European Robin's original name of redbreast (orange as the name of a colour was unknown in English until the sixteenth century, by which time the fruit of that name had been introduced).

OK, that sort of explains it, except I was under the impression that before the advent of oranges to Britain, the colour orange would have been described as "gold" - eg the colour of Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.'s shirts is still, to this day, called "gold". Can anyone explain? --Dweller (talk) 11:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "red" can be used for a range of colours, not just primary red, e.g. bricks, some types of rock and earth, people's hair colour, etc. It is also a short and simple word. I don't personally think "robin redbreast" is very surprising or needs a very complicated explanation. 86.160.211.55 (talk) 12:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Gold" is equally not a particularly long or difficult word. Is it not the case that the word "gold" was used for the colour orange, before the word came into existence? Or is that a myth. --Dweller (talk) 12:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, but to me "gold" is more yellowy. I wouldn't really call the robin colour "gold". Some websites say the Old English name for orange was "geoluhread", literally "yellow-red". 86.160.211.55 (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * From our article Anthropological linguistics: Whatever one calls it, this field has had a major impact in the studies of such areas as visual perception (especially colour) and bioregional democracy, both of which are concerned with distinctions that are made in languages about perceptions of the surroundings. And I remember reading something about the use of the colour blue in Homer's Odyssey, which does not really correspond to what we perceive as blue nowadays, so this may be rather subjective. Lectonar (talk) 13:01, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * For me, for the pic, this is orange. Lectonar (talk) 13:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As are robins' breasts in the UK. Which is my point. --Dweller (talk) 13:14, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * But compare the colour of the robin's breast with the colour shown on the Golden oriole, Goldfinch, or Goldcrest. The colours are quite different.  We might now call the colour of the robin "orange", and that shown on the other birds "yellow", but clearly that was once not the case.  The meaning of the words "red" and "gold" must have shifted over time, a not uncommon occurrence.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting. So you're saying that anything darker than yellowish would have been called "red"? That would make sense, if not for the traditional use of gold in the football shirt, though I suppose that could just be a deliberate attempt at archaism by an essentially modern institution. Having looked at our article on Or, I think you're right. --Dweller (talk) 13:33, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Red hair. It's not the colour that we would now call "red".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not the simple primary red, maybe, but as I mentioned above, "red" is used in a range of extended senses, extending into brown and orange. This includes hair, leaves, bricks, rocks, earth, and so on, as well as animals like squirrels, foxes, pandas, etc. 86.160.211.55 (talk) 14:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Wolverhampton Wanderers football colours are normally described as "old gold and black" - not just "gold". --TammyMoet (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I thought, but our article on the club says that's factually incorrect. --Dweller (talk) 13:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What is? Wolverhampton_Wanderers says the media usually use that description, so my words above are correct. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't say they were. I began my reply with "Yes", which is the opposite of "No". There's no need to be sniffy, I'm grateful for your help. --Dweller (talk) 09:16, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds says; "The UK's favourite bird - with its bright red breast it is familIar throughout the year and especially at Christmas!". In the infobox at the side, they plump for "red, orange". The British Trust for Ornithology says; "The red breast of adult Robins is instantly recognisable making this species one of the most straightforward to identify". I must say that I've never thought of robins as being anything other than red, and the one that hops around outside our office is a good deal less orange and more red than the football shirt above. I expect that there may be some variation between individuals. Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Many translations of Beowulf include the idea of "red gold". I am not sure if this is an actual early concept of color or just loose translations though. 75.41.109.190 (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen the concept of "red gold" in multiple places, most or all of which are in a mediæval or mediævalish setting, even though some haven't attempted to sound archaic. As a result, I suspect that it's a different kind of gold alloy, just like white gold except alloyed with a different kind of metal.  Nyttend (talk) 22:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I should have checked red gold. I guessed correctly: it's a copper alloy.  Nyttend (talk) 22:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * See robin (Erithacus rubecula): Esperanto "ruĝgorĝulo" ("red-throated one"), French "rouge-gorge" ("red-throat"), German "Rotkehlchen" ("little red-throat"), Italian "pettirosso" ("red-breast"), and other translations.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The American robin, at least, has kind of a burnt-orange or dark orange chest, leaning more toward the red than the yellow. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:33, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Although the American Robin is not actually only distantly related to the European robin; they only have a "red" front in common. Alansplodge (talk) 09:49, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction - they are both Passerines. Alansplodge (talk) 18:32, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I expect that there is considerable variation between populations, but the British robins where I live have fronts that are more red than orange. It's not a bright red, more of a brownish red, but not what I'd call "orange".  Our article Shades of red misses some that I would call red (such as vermilion), and the orange article seems to include what I would call "reddish-brown", but that's just my opinion, perhaps influenced by rufous, red fox, red squirrel etc. (named when red was a more general word).  I suppose we have to take into account that people actually see colours very differently because of differing ratios of colour cones, and the words we use for the colours we "see" are mainly socially defined.    D b f i r s   21:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Greek constitution translation
Could someone please provide a translation of the brief Article 45 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Greece? Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The Greek Crown and its constitutional rights are hereditary and they are passed on to the true and legitimate lineal descendants of King GEORGE I in order of primogeniture, with preference given to males." (In modern Greek spelling: "Το Ελληνικόν Στέμμα και τα συνταγματικά αυτού δικαιώματα είναι διαδοχικά και περιέρχονται εις τους κατ' ευθείαν γραμμήν γνήσιους και νόμιμους απογόνους του Βασιλέως ΓΕΩΡΓΊΟΥ του Α' κατά τάξιν πρωτοτοκίας, προτιμομένων τον αρρένων.") Lesgles (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Surtsicna (talk) 10:27, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Dutch government corporations
What's the relationship between our KPN article and the Dutch nl:PTT (Nederland)? Is the PTT simply an older form of the KPN company, comparable to (although in reverse) the relationship between our National Association of Professional Base Ball Players article and the Dutch nl:National League? Note that there's also a Dutch article nl:Koninklijke KPN, which seemingly covers the same topic as our KPN article. Nyttend (talk) 18:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Your suspicions are basically correct, except that KPN is not a government corporation; it is fully privatized. PTT is a defunct predecessor of KPN.  It was privatized in the 1990s.  It isn't quite right to say that PTT is an older form of KPN, since PTT included the Dutch postal service, and KPN does not.  PTT split into two companies, one of which became KPN and the other of which included the postal service.  Marco polo (talk) 19:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)