Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 4

= March 4 =

It's a good deal more nothing than neck
Would you please teach me the meaning of "It's a good deal more nothing than neck" in the following passage? It puzzled him, and at the same time his trained eye saw that it would make up admirably. To save his face he began making suggestions for altering it, but Mrs. Hodges, with more sense, advised him to show it to Miss Antonia as it was. "It's neck or nothing with her, and she may take a fancy to it." "It's a good deal more nothing than neck," said Mr. Sampson, looking at the decolletage. "He can draw, can't he? Fancy 'im keeping it dark all this time."---W. S. Maugham, Of Human Bondage I thank you in advance.123.227.223.236 (talk) 00:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)dengen
 * "Neck or nothing" is a traditional phrase referring to the outcome of a murder trial - either the defendant will be hanged or not be punished at all (if he's acquitted). Maugham is making a joke based on the phrase, because the picture shows a lot more of the subject's skin than just her neck - she's wearing nothing on the upper part of her chest.  See décolletage, as well. Tevildo (talk) 01:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns & Genders
Is there a language where the first-person personal pronoun changes for gender (of any type)? --Theurgist (talk) 18:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See Japanese pronouns. bamse (talk) 19:05, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * However, the Japanese forms aren't really restricted by grammatical gender (which doesn't exist in Japanaese); rather, there are certain forms (including other words besides 1st person pronouns) which are more or less confined to women's speech. Pronouns in Japanese are rather strange by European standards -- new words cycle in and out of use as pronouns every few centuries, and there are tendencies to avoid personal pronouns even though verbs are not inflected for person and number.  AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Ore' and 'boku' are for males, and 'watashi' and 'atashi' are used by females. However, depending on the speaker, they can be used completely interchangeably, usually for comic effect, but some people use the opposite gender's pronoun all the time. Mostly, however, pronouns are not used, as context provides the answer when in doubt. "Akachan, tabeta?" could mean "Has the baby eaten?" or "Did you eat the baby?", as there is no pronoun, but from context, you would understand. Many people either use the name, family status (such as mum, dad, older/younger brother, etc.,) or job status (such as section head, or whatever). Pronouns are rarely used in Japanese. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gender-specific pronoun (version of 07:58, 4 March 2013) says "Uniquely among Indo-European languages, Tocharian A (also known as Eastern Tocharian) distinguishes gender in the first person, using näṣ for the male speaker and ñuk for the female speaker."
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ñuk ñuk ñuk ñuk μηδείς (talk) 22:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Vietnamese, where personal pronouns are complicated. Actually, there is a simple "I" and "you" but their use is regarded as highly insulting in most contexts. Other, mainly kinship, terms are substituted, and many of those are gendered. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yemeni Arabic has male anā and female anī. --147.142.246.226 (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thai_language.--Wikimedes (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Trochee or not?
Hello,

could you confirm whether that poem is a trochee? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 19:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Master Lampel's gentle powers Failed with rascals such as ours; For the evilly inclined Pay preceptors little mind.
 * The 3rd line tends to mess it up, try reading it thus:


 * Master Lampel's gentle powers
 * Failed with rascals such as ours;
 * For the evilly inclined ←[maybe ?]
 * Pay preceptors little mind. [corrected self -oops]


 * ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 20:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The third line is fine with the emphasis on the first, 3rd, 5th and 7th syllables, I don't see the problem there.

--TammyMoet (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * For information related to the rhyme between "powers" and "ours",
 * see Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 November 12
 * and Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 February 24.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 20:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah-ha! [rhymes with homework] ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 20:38, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Not too up on poetry but the article on trochee does mention dropping the last unstressed syllable in a line: "These lines are primarily trochaic, with the last syllable dropped so that the line ends with a stressed syllable to give a strong rhyme or masculine rhyme" --Lyncs (talk) 23:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Another phrase meaning "oriental".
My g/f and I make model villages for people who play tabletop games. Our next product is going to be a traditional Japanese village - complete with pagoda, tea-house, stables, peasant huts, etc...all very stereotypical for a Samurai/Ninja/whatever scenario without being too specific about the time period. At some point, we realized that most of the buildings would be equally at home in China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. So we plan on making it all a bit more generic and widening the description. Architectural purists may be horrified by this - but they aren't our target market.

I was all for calling it an "Oriental village" - but some of our customers pointed out that "Oriental" is no longer politically correct as a description of that group of cultures. (Sorry - this was news to me!) The phrase "Far Eastern" or "East Asian" both seem a bit ugly to me and I don't want a long-winded name. Is there a better phrase that I could use to describe this imaginary (somewhat generic) place?

SteveBaker (talk) 20:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If your market is primarily American, just Asian will work fine. That's the PC term in the United States, and it's really pretty specific for people with Han-derived somatotypes.  If the market includes the UK, of course, you have a problem, as I am given to understand that there the word Asian is used more for South Asians, especially Pakistanis (who don't really count as "Asian" in American English). --Trovatore (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that in the United States, Asian means "East Asian". If the UK is an important part of your market, maybe you could try something like "Han Village". The word Han (with tonal characteristics that vary by language) works as a demonym in Mandarin Chinese, Korean, and Japanese (but with different referents in each language).  The best known of these is Han Chinese, but South Koreans also refer to their nationality as Han (spelled with a different character and pronounced with a different tone in Mandarin), and in Japan Han, written with yet another Chinese-derived character, has a different historical meaning.  By the way, I think that village architecture actually varies quite a bit across this region, but apparently you aren't concerned about that. Marco polo (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That's very useful.  I hadn't thought about the US/UK variation in the meaning of "Asian" - but you're absolutely right...that won't work.  I was thinking that "East Asian" would resolve that - but somehow it doesn't flow the way I want it to.  "Han Village" is great - but it depends a on whether enough of our customers (Brits, Americans, Aussies and various Euro countries) would understanding the term.  I guess I would - but then I read too much Wikipedia!
 * I'm acutely aware of the problems of architecture variation from place to place and time to time - but, again, most people aren't - so I think we'll be able to make something somewhat generic and it'll work OK. SteveBaker (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose "Sunrise village" would be too vague? ['Orient'] Origin: via French from Latin oriēns rising (sun), from orīrī to rise — Preceding obscure comment added by 74.60.29.141 (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not a bad name - but if I just hear "Sunrise Village" will I immediately think of that part of the world rather than a bunch of beach huts in Hawaii? I can certainly come up with non-descriptive names..."Dragon Lord Village" (or some such) and convey the idea that way - but I was hoping to find the exact right word. SteveBaker (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Sunrise village is where the old folks go to die. The allusion would be lost on all but linguists anyway. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Shangri-La Village"? — since it is an "imaginary place" in East Asia? ~:74.60.29.141 (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC):~
 * Shangri-La is in the Himalayas. If your market is English speaking use East Asian which is clear to all and offends none. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * A few thoughts:
 * If your market is primarily non-American, Oriental will be fine. That said, you've already identified the potential issues with it over the pond. I agree that East Asian sounds a little clumsy - I'm sure we can come up with something more poetic.
 * I googled "Oriental style architecture" which took me to Chinese architecture - apparently most of the style familiar to Westerners as being 'of the Orient' is Chinese derived. Presumably, though, 'Chinese village' sounds too specific.
 * With that in mind, how about identifying your village with a common feature of the different countries? I'm thinking particularly of Pagodas. Maybe Pagoda Village doesn't sound good enough, but something along those lines.
 * Or, how about another common feature to the countries - Buddhism? Maybe 'House of the Buddha'?
 * Finally, what about using a made-up name purporting to be the name of your specific village? Hornby set their model buildings in the fictional Yorkshire village of Skaledale. Maybe you could use a similar idea? I have no particularly brilliant ideas, but Zijin Cheng is the Chinese for Forbidden City; perhaps a similar translation/transliteration would be suitable. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see what's wrong with "Oriental"... And what does politics have to do with a country? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 22:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion of "Oriental" came up a while back. Consensus was that it's OK to call objects "Oriental", but not people. As a good example, I can't tell you how many "Asian" restaurants I've seen in America that have "Orient" or "Oriental" somewhere in their names. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, but Tomcat's question is, what makes it OK or not OK? And the answer is that there is not much logic to this.  I wish there were more; the whole PC thing is a constant irritant.  But ignoring it winds up causing hard feelings with people that you don't really want to have hard feelings with, and doesn't seem to be worth it.  So one just has to memorize, and hope for the dawn of a more rational day. --Trovatore (talk) 23:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The explanation I seem to remember being given in re "don't use the word oriental" ran something like this: The term describes one half of the world by reference to the other. The Occident is thought of as the "default" location, and the Orient is only defined by relation to it. Terms like "east and west" are not quite as controversial, given that the location of the Prime Meridian isn't much in dispute. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 01:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've heard this explanation, but it's complete crap. Are we saying that etymology is what controls?  See how far you get with that with some other terms.  Etymologically, I believe, Asia also means "east", and as for the prime meridian, that's completely irrelevant &mdash; it's a totally arbitrary point based on where a particular observatory happened to be, and has nothing to do with what has historically been considered east or west.  No, really, Evan, don't defend it; it really is nonsense.  Unfortunately it's nonsense we have to live with. --Trovatore (talk) 01:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not defending anything, just giving what little info I have on the topic. No matter what term you use, someone will find a way to be offended. Just pick one and stick with it. As a side note, I think there has been a similar layer of irrational offense built up over the word "negro". Inherently, it's a word of Spanish derivation that is no more offensive than "black" is in English, but because of the cultural context in which it was prominent has become taboo. "Oriental" was used, as both an adjective and a noun, during a period when Asians in America were primarily menial laborers and subject to the sorts of discrimination and abuse that nearly every immigrant group in North America has gone through at one time or another. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 01:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, actually, Asia means western Turkey, as opposed to insular and peninsular Greece, oriental means "in relations to the dawn" (same roots as Easter and Aurora) and given the Chinese call their land the "Middle Kindom" and the Japanese theirs "The lAnd of the Rising Sun" neither of those has grounds to complain. And they don't unless they go to college in California. μηδείς (talk) 01:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

In the UK, "Oriental" for a village will do just fine, and "Han" would mean nothing to most people, except, perhaps, making them think of the bloke who shot first. --Dweller (talk) 23:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I still like Shangri-La; from the article: "Shangri-La has become synonymous with any earthly paradise but particularly a mythical Himalayan utopia — a permanently happy land, isolated from the outside world. ... The word also evokes the imagery of exoticism of the Orient." — Especially since you are looking for "a better phrase that I could use to describe this imaginary (somewhat generic) place". (And - nobody knows exactly what Shangri-La looks like, or where it is, except in the Himalayas someplace, Tibet? Nepal? South China?) ~Just my 2¢, ~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I can see the brochure now: "Come to Shagri-La Village and live the legend!"™ ← [Slogan, free of charge!]  74.60.29.141 (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * No, there's nothing wrong with "Oriental"...except that there is a large well-funded grievance mongering industry that will make using this in the US painful specifically becuase it is historically used to refer to China/Korea/Japan and other Mongoloid race cultures.
 * 1) Shangri-La is specifically Himalayan and excludes Koreans and Japanese and basically anyone who is not Nepalese or Tibetan.
 * 2) East Asian sounds clumsier than Oriental, I agree, but it will not be misunderstood or taken offense to, which is what one wants in regard to a customer base.  But, by all means, if one's customer base is Anglos over 40 who will notice the euphemism and take offense at East Asian, then feel free.  Customers under 30 will neither notice nor care that you avoiding Oriental. μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Pagoda village might work. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem with Oriental is that it offends a lot of Americans of East Asian origin (and perhaps other English-speaking people of East Asian origin). The reason that it offends is that the word Oriental has a connotation of "exotic", and some people don't like to be exoticized, partly because that entails a degree of objectification. It isn't for people of non-Asian descent to say whether Asians should or should not object to the term. Especially if you want to maximize the market for a product, you want to use language that does not offend potential customers. Marco polo (talk) 02:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The "it isn't for people..." meme is problematic in a number of ways. For one thing, it suggests that there is some sort of collective East Asian body of opinion on the matter.  These usually turn out to be the opinions of the self-appointed opinion leaders, who have internalized the bullshit sociology taught in today's universities.  Also, it turns into a blank-check veto on how other people talk. --Trovatore (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It's basically white nannyism - whites telling other whites how to talk so as to avoid offending non-whites. It's patronizing, it's offensive on its own. If there's a problem with "oriental" as a word, why do so freakin' many restaurants run by east Asians label their stores "oriental"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah that's nonsense and Marco polo is spot on. This isn't about restaurant owners, it's about a growing consensus that the word is offensive, for exactly the reasons Marco polo describes. --Viennese Waltz 06:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Everything I said is factual. It figures that would equate to "nonsense" in your world. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * In Australia back in the 1970s Asian became the PC name for people with slanty eyes when the obviously offensive gooks, chinks, slopes, the less offensive but sloppily inaccurate Chinese, plus a few other terms both nasty and nice, became unacceptable after the Vietnam War. It still means "people with slanty eyes" here, with speakers often having no idea precisely which country such people come from. But geographically it has never had a clear meaning. To pedants like me it has always meant anything east of the Urals, the Bosporus and the Red Sea. To others, it's where Asians come from, which is a bit circular. To capitalists, it means those places they hope to sell our rocks to. HiLo48 (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll have to be sure to refer to them as "slanty eyes", so as to avoid occidentally using the non-PC term, "Oriental". :-) StuRat (talk) 07:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * When I ask other Australian people what they mean by Asian, they tend to say "You know. Asian. Slanty eyes and stuff." They know what an Asian looks like, but they have no better definition. HiLo48 (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Itvseems to me that people who are getting hot under the collar about PC are forgetting that Steve's choice of terms is a marketing one. Shangri-La is at least an attempt to come up with something attractive. I can only think of The Kyoto, The Cherry Blossom (it was a shoe polish in Britain, though), The Yangtze, The Asia Dawn. If I were any good at thinking up such things I would be wealthier than I am. I suggest scouring tourist brochures. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I would go with 'Eastern'. 'Oriental' sounds fine to me, but if your target market disagrees, then go for 'Eastern'. The answers here are all about political correctness, and are not overwhelmingly helpful or constructive. The question is about how to name a product for a target audience, not about PC. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I hesitate to enter this thread, not least because (1) I'm not acquainted with all the nuances of reference/connotation that the various terms have in different regions and (2) I don't really see the problem with "East Asian"; but I'll just add that another possibility is "Asiatic village". Asiatic might be obsolete enough—without being unintelligible—that it escapes the differences that have been pointed out in the US and UK usage of Asian. Deor (talk) 12:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Zen Village is my suggestion. 93.95.251.162 (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC) Martin.


 * I don't understand Baseball Bugs's problem with someone from Group A telling someone else from Group A how to speak respectfully about someone from Group B. If I were a member of Group A using a term that some members of Group B find disrespectful, I'd want someone, from any group, to tell me. As for restaurants using the word "Oriental" in their name, there aren't very many in my neck of the woods, which happens to be a neck of the woods with a substantial population of East Asian origin.  In less cosmopolitan places, I've seen restaurants with those names.  Two possible reasons, both of which might apply:  1) The owners aren't offended by the word Oriental.  (I never said all people of East Asian origin were; the fact that a substantial proportion are is reason enough not to use it if you want to be respectful, which you may not want to be.) 2) The owners may not especially like the word Oriental but have chosen to use it to market their restaurant to the ignorant non-Asians in their area.  If you want to use the word Oriental in the United States, there is no law against ignorance and disrespect, but it won't win you many customers among those who feel targeted by your disregard.  Marco polo (talk) 17:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You have reinforced what I was saying about white nannyism. That whole series of racist tags which HiLo listed (for which nobody got riled, which says something in itself), are obviously offensive. For something blurrier, like "oriental", it's best to make some inquiries of members of that group, rather than taking the patronizing approach that you're suggesting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:00, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So you think that the best way to approach a person of a different background than yourself is to say "Do you mind if I call you [term that some members of your group find offensive]?" And you think that my approach of avoiding terms that might cause offense to some members of a group is "patronizing"? Do you mind if I call you an asshole? Don't patronize me by suggesting that the term is inappropriate. Marco polo (talk) 20:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course not. The way to do this is to ask an East Asian you already know, something like, "How do you feel about this term 'Oriental'? Is it a bad word? Or old-fashioned? Or neutral? I'm asking because I don't know." That approach works, for something I'm uncertain of. That list of words HiLo posted, I don't have to ask about, because I already know that they're obscene. But I don't need PC-obsessed white people lecturing me on what's offensive to another race. Members of that race are the right source for that information. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The very fact that you use the word "race", a concept that is discredited, proves how little you understand about this subject. You're obsessed with telling questioners to use Google rather than coming here.  Well, I suggest you do a bit of googling yourself in order to educate yourself about the racist connotations of the word "oriental".  Here's a link to start you off . --Viennese Waltz 08:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The very fact that you fantasize that race is a "discredited" concept is reason enough to not trust anything you say on the matter. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You are quite aware of the fact that the number of people who enjoy be called an asshole includes 2 or 3 people not living in the basement of a tenement on the Lower East Side. μηδείς (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You can call me an 'asshole' as much as you want, because 'donkey hole' is ridiculous ('ass' means 'donkey' in proper English). The entire point of the question is how to name a product for a target market. Stay focused, guys. We have a person asking a question. Questions need answers. That's what they are there for. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I have worked in copy writer-like capacities in the past, and I would never, ever, under any circumstances, use the word "oriental" in advertising copy or elsewhere. The fact that the word has generated so much discussion here should be a clear indicator that it should be ruled out. Offensiveness is a value judgement, so arguing over it isn't going to resolve anything. If a significant number of people find it offensive, than you should avoid it. For business purposes, that's all you need to know. Personally, I would use "East Asian," or, if your product is likely to be distributed exclusively within the US, simply "Asian." "Shangri La" strikes me as unnecessarily wordy and not much in the way of a noun modifier. I've never seen "zen" used except in reference to a state of mind (or something tending to induce that state of mind); it is slightly less awful than "Shangri La," but it doesn't do much for me. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 22:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You did not examine my contribution. :( At any rate, you are correct about the lengthy side-bars: it seems  "but some of our customers pointed out . . . " has been lost.  If your customers raise a concern, it's an issue you want to avoid, regardless.  Or you could just call the car you are trying to sell, 'no va' in Latin America. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think your suggestion of Pagoda Village is a good one, nice and visual and characteristically East Asian without the likelihood of offending anyone. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The word to use is East Asian. That's the word that keeps coming up on nearly everyone's statements, and that's the simple answer to the question. Personal evaluations of what "sounds clumsy" are subject to individuals. In fact, most people who say the term "East Asian" accommodate for it in their verbal pronunciation (e.g., "E-station", or "E-statia") so it does not sound clumsy.-- MarshalN20 | T al k 14:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The word to use is just Asian. Trust me, I'm one myself. Just Asian will do. (Unless you wanted to be pedantic and counted Indians) Not having read the bulk of the conversation above, I would like to point out that "oriental" is offensive (well not to me though) if you are using it in referral to humans. Oriental, if you really want to use it, is used to describe non-living things from the Orient, ala Asia. You could say Oriental toilet bowls, Oriental sausages, Oriental spittoons, but please, no Oriental clowns. Note: Asians rarely use the term "Oriental" – it is more of a Western term. Whereas, Asian encompasses both living a nd no living things from Asia and hence you could say Asian sausages as well as Asian clowns. To answer the OP's question, "Asian village" would be more apt, as compared to "Oriental village". ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 14:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The language problem with "Asian" is the size of Asia. "Asians" include Turks, Arabs, Russians, Israelis, Palestinians, Iraquis, Iranians, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Indians, and a host of others. "Asian" has become a euphemism for "Oriental", which is also a bit of a misnomer as it means "Eastern", but is really a euphemism for "Far Eastern" or "East Asian". However, language is what it is, and "logical" it isn't always. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:12, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There you go, Baseball Bugs. A real live Asian person telling you that the term "Oriental" is offensive.  Now will you withdraw your support for the term? --Viennese Waltz 15:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I will refrain from using it here, as someone "in the know" has spoken up. As far as "support" goes, just google the term "oriental" and see how many institutions have that word in their title. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:28, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

(editing break)
Wow! You ask a question, the response stream goes dead and scrolls up a ways...so you turn your back for a day and *KABLOOIE* - flame-wars!!

So, I'm the OP. I hereby rule that, for the narrow purpose of helping me out with an answer to my question:


 * 1) "Oriental" is off the table no matter how good the arguments for using it.  That's why I asked this question for chrissakes!  The answer to the question "What is another phrase meaning 'oriental'?" is not by any stretch of the imagination: "oriental"!!  I'll grant that this could be a newly offensive term, that some (but not all) people from various parts of the world are increasingly offended by it.  I readily agree that overly PC-ness is a bad thing for our language (I remember when "gay" meant "happy").  I had no idea it was even a slightly dubious choice until I posted the name to a discussion group that my actual customers read, and I got told off for using it.  So using it would definitely hit my bottom-line so it's dead...gone...buried...not gonna happen - even though (naively) I thought it was a great choice.
 * 2) "Asian" alone is inadequate.  At least for British people (who make up 25% of my customers) it includes most of Russia, India, Pakistan and other places that are not a part of that part of the world that includes Japan, China, Korea and Vietnam...our model village would look ridiculous if planted in Turkey...it's off the table for that reason.
 * Would you call an Indian "Asian"? When you search for "Asian", your mind expects Chinese, Korean or Japanese stuff to pop out, certainly not Indian, Russian or Turkish. Technically though, you are right to say so. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 04:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "Eastern" is also too vague...where "Eastern" is depends on where you live...and places like the Arabian peninsular have been called "The Near East" - and pagodas don't figure highly in their architecture either!  Heck, parts of Australia are further east than China and I don't see many pagodas there either!
 * 2) "East-Asian" would technically work - but I, personally, find it clumsy as a name for our product and just I don't want to use it.  Ditto "Far-East".  Yes, they may be "correct" and politically correct and totally descriptive and comprehensible to nearly everyone - but I just don't want to use them!  I said that in my question at the outset, so suggestions of this form, while perfectly valid, are of no use to me because I already thought of - and rejected - them.  If they worked for me, I wouldn't have needed to ask the question.
 * 3) "Han" is the one and only great suggestion so far.  Thank you!!  It's technically correct - and I hadn't thought of it, so the Language Ref Desk did me a service with this one.  I rather like the sound of "Han Village" when it's pronounced "Haaaan" (wookie-friend) rather than like "man".  But as someone pointed out, my customer demographic is almost entirely English-speaking teens to 30 year olds from all over the English-speaking world with way too much knowledge of StarWars - and I'm fairly sure that enough of them wouldn't "get it" to make this a less than stellar choice...but it was a great suggestion!
 * Han is even narrower, I find. Han is just this large ethnic group in China and in no way equals to "Oriental". Of course, Han has other meanings (all about China). ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 04:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of another decent synonym for "oriental" - we're left with the option of merely evoking the sense of a oriental/asian/east-asian/eastern/far-eastern village without actually using that name. I kinda like "shangri-la" - but it has overtones of a mythical paradise that don't quite fit what I need here - and if you look it up, it clearly talks about the Himalayas - which is outside the region where this kind of architecture would seem to be common.

So we'll probably wind up with something like "Village of the Dragon King" or "Lotus blossom village" or something generic-but-evocative like that.

Suggestions along those lines are VERY welcome...as are more synonyms for "oriental" - but please, no need to fight the PC battle here.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The Forbidden City has a "Yellow Crane Gate" which sounds pleasant and rustic and, dare I say, "oriental", but might be confused with a mechanical crane I suppose. Alansplodge (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Lotus Blossom" might have inappropriate (but not offensive) connotations for UK customers of a certain age - worth bearing in mind, perhaps. Tevildo (talk) 21:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How about Village of the Far East?--Wikimedes
 * Speaking as an Oriental:
 * 1. What's non-PC about Oriental? Is it also non-PC in the US to say "Antipodeian" or "subcontinental"? What about "Middle Eastern" or "Scandinavian"?
 * 2. I wrote most of our Forbidden City article and I have never heard of "yellow crane gate" in the Forbidden City, and a after checking several sources I can't find any reference to such a gate at all. Are you thinking of the Yellow Crane Tower (which is a long way from the Forbidden City in a different part of the country)?
 * You are quite right, I had conflated two sentences by mistake. Apologies and congratulations on the article. Alansplodge (talk) 15:34, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 3. (While I don't understand what is wrong with Oriental or East Asian,) I like Tevildo's idea of using some kind of East Asian cultural symbol. In addition to lotus blossoms or peach blossoms, consider plum blossoms, which are not only culturally positive across East Asia. "Plum Blossom Village" could also to refer to "Apricot Blossom Village", which is a (possibly fictitious) village referenced in a famous classical Chinese poem well known across East Asia, and has connotation of an idyllic, restful village which is also welcoming of visitors. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)