Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 May 14

= May 14 =

Phrases from the NYtimes book review "A Feast for the Senses"
Hi, I'm a Taiwanese student trying to translate a part of "A Feast for the Senses" into Chinese, and I need some help with understanding some phrases.

Here's the part of the article I'm translating:

I’ve managed to eat at Kenny Shopsin’s legendary restaurant and ¬customer-hazing clinic only once, thanks to a regular who had passed muster and brought me along to breakfast. This was when Shopsin’s was still in Greenwich Village and felt like a crazed version of the general store it had once been; over the stack of plain pancakes that I ordered without knowing any better, I tried not to be too alarmed by the abusive banter in the kitchen between Shopsin and one of his sons — which sounded, to the uninitiated, like a job for 911. Could I call social services, I wondered, and still come back for more pancakes?

I did try going back to Shopsin’s a few times after that first visit, but I never made it past the door again. (It hurt more than being turned away from a restaurant should.) “Until I know the people,” Shopsin explains in “Eat Me: The Food and Philosophy of Kenny Shopsin,” a cookbook designed by his daughter Tamara and photographed by her husband, Jason Fulford, “until they show me that they are worth cultivating as customers, I’m not even sure I want their patronage.” In a city where it’s possible to bluff or buy your way into almost anything, Shopsin’s has turned snobbery on its head by remaking the diner into a private club for a membership of the cook’s choosing.

Luckily for the rest of us, Tamara Shopsin, a graphic designer and illustrator whose work has appeared in the pages of the Book Review, has a much more egalitarianrelationship with her public. Her new memoir, “Mumbai New York Scranton,” with illustrations by the author and photographs, once again, by Fulford, throws the doors open on her father’s restaurant (where she still works on Saturdays, cracking “unholy amounts of eggs” for brunch); brings the reader on a pilgrimage, through the crumbling museums and time-warped hotels of India and back again to the delis of Brooklyn and the supermarkets of Scranton, Pa., where the couple have a house; and most arrestingly of all, takes us inside the studio for a peek at her creative process. Oh, and there’s the small matter of the sudden diagnosis of a brain tumor, a hemangioblastoma that explains why Shopsin can’t balance on her bicycle anymore or keep down any of her food. Some memoirs are about travel. Others are about surviving a bigger-than-life family. Many of them are about illness, and the rare memoir gives readers a private glimpse of a marriage that’s also a creative partnership. Just like one of the fabled items from her father’s menu (look up “mac ’n’ cheese pancakes” online some time), Shopsin’s memoir does them all.

And here are the phrases that I need help with:

1. customer-hazing clinic (paragraph 1) 2. "until they show me that they are worth cultivating as customers" (paragraph 2) 3. turned snobbery on its head (paragraph 2) 4. unholy amounts of eggs (paragraph 3) 5. time-warped hotels (paragraph 3) 6. I don't really understand the difference between a deli and a restaurant (paragraph 3) 7. Is to "keep down food" equivalent to "not throw up"? (paragraph 3) 8. What is "a bigger-than-life family"? (paragraph 3) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freya3550 (talk • contribs) 02:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * A customer-hazing clinic means, roughly, a place where customers are abused. Hazing is ritual abuse.
 * He's saying that customers need show themselves worthy of his respect before he gives it to them.
 * To "turn something on its head" means to do it backwards or the opposite from the way it is supposed to happen. In this case, he's taken a diner, which is a fairly low-class eating establishment, and made it a private club (hence "snobbery")
 * An unholy amount of something is slang for "way too much of it". Similar to "shitload".
 * Time-warped hotels, from this context, means hotels from another era: probably old and dilapidated from the context.
 * A deli is short for a Delicatessen, a place where cold cuts are sliced. The term is used in the Northeast, especially New York, for a type of eating establishment called a "Sandwich shop" in other parts of the U.S.  A deli is basically a restaurant that serves almost exclusively sandwiches.
 * Yup. To keep down food means to not vomit, usually when "keeping it down" is an effort, in this case his cancer makes it hard to not vomit.
 * "Bigger than life" (sometimes "Larger than life") usually means unusually noteworthy; usually this refers to people who are charismatic or have gregarious personalities, or often find themselves in interesting situations. See here.
 * Does all that help? -- Jayron  32  06:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Delis serve more than just sandwiches. For example, they sell sliced meats and cheeses and various salads as well as breads for customers to take home.  Certain kinds of salads (egg salad, tuna salad, chicken salad, potato salad, coleslaw) are deli specialties, as are pickles (pickled cucumbers), which are often prominently displayed in a jar on the counter.  I'm not sure how you'd translate deli or delicatessen into Chinese, but maybe 小吃店 or 西餐小吃店 would work. Marco polo (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but sandwiches and freshly sliced cold cuts is what makes a delicatessen a delicatessen. If it doesn't sell cold cuts, it isn't a deli; and the use of deli to mean "sandwich shop" in addition to seller of cold cuts is particular to the north east U.S., and NYC especially.  A deli could, of course, sell more than that.  It just isn't a deli if it doesn't.  It likewise isn't a bakery if it doesn't sell baked goods (even if it sells more), and it isn't a hardware store if it doesn't sell hardware (even if it sells other things).  What makes a deli a deli is the cold cuts and the sandwiches.  -- Jayron  32  23:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. In Australia, many delis do indeed sell sandwiches but it's not guaranteed.  A sandwich shop/cafe/bakery/take-away shop is where you'll definitely find sandwiches.  A deli's core business is cold cuts and cheeses.  They sell many more items than just that, of course, but those 2 things are what defines an Aussie delicatessen, imo.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  23:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Outside of the greater NYC area, you'd find a similar usage in the U.S. as well. -- Jayron  32  00:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd also point out that clinic is being used sarcastically here. Angr (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As in soccer clinic, computer clinic, tax preparation clinic = intense, short-term instruction (American English). Textorus (talk) 21:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot everyone :) But why is clinic sarcasm? And what are soccer clinic, computer clinic and all that stuff? Oh, and by the way, the English-Chinese dictionary says that deli is 熟食店, and I've also seen several books translate deli as 熟食店... like it's already a convention to translate deli as 熟食店. Do you think it's accurate? Freya3550 (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the idiomatic translation of deli in Mandarin is certainly 熟食店, or slightly less prevalently, 熟菜店. --15:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As Textorus says, a soccer or computer clinic is a place of intense short-term instruction in that subject. A restaurant that is described sarcastically as a "customer-hazing clinic" isn't really a place of instruction in how to abuse customers, it just seems that way because customers are abused so frequently there. --Viennese Waltz 14:02, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

count vs matter
Is it alright (usually, or at least in specific context) to use to count as a synonym of to matter? E.g.: "Nothing else counts" = "Nothing else matters"? --KnightMove (talk) 13:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In that context, yes, I think so. Of course counting from one to ten is not the same as mattering from one to ten. Looie496 (talk) 14:20, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * KnightMove, I see from your user page you're a native German speaker. English count does have this meaning, just as zählen does; we also say to count on someone meaning to rely on them, just as you do in German. Angr (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree they can be synonyms, but I suspect that in most contexts there will be a difference between the meanings. "Matter" means to be important; "count" means to be counted towards something. Your vote doesn't count if it is disqualified in some way; your vote doesn't matter if it turns out not to affect the material result of the election. Victor Yus (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks so far. Reason for my question was Weil der Mensch zählt. This phrase means "Because man matters" (I can't see any sense to interpret it as the other meaning of count). I don't know who came up with the idea to translate this as "Man is the measure of all things", however this is far-fetched, or rather plain wrong. For this reason I brood to replace the translation, but was not sure whether count must be replaced by matter or not?! --KnightMove (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * To me 'Because the human counts' seems rather non-sensical. There is no context from which to determine whether it should be interpreted at 'count' or 'matter', and this ambiguity leads me to assume the more common meaning of 'count' (as in 'to ten'). V85 (talk) 16:12, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Or "Because humanity matters"? IMO, it's not really possible to give a good recommendation for an unambiguous, idiomatic English phrase without seeing the context in which the OP wants to use it.  Textorus (talk)


 * "Of consequence" is similar in meaning to what we seem to be discussing. Perhaps one could say "Man is of consequence". Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no clear context for the phrase. See the lyrics and a translation of this very silly song. I think "man is the measure of all things" is too far from the original meaning, and too grandiose. I think "Because humans/human beings/man count(s)" works OK; you could also include the "matter" translation as an alternative. It's possible there's a pun on his listing or "counting" of the animals. Lesgles (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Brood KnightMove, your use of "brood" above is very poetic. The usage is slightly off, so I'd like to explain. The simple verb to brood in English doesn't take an object when used regarding humans: in that case it means "worry". "John broods" means he spends (to much) time worrying. In birds it means to sit on the nest or do nesting behaviour: "Most birds brood in the spring; chickens brood all year round.

In your example, a preposition is needed: to brood over something, or to brood about something. Your sentence would be correct if you had said "I am brooding about whether to replace the translation."

You also need the progressive "am brooding" to indicate it is right now; "I brood about" would mean you do this habitually. And "to brood over/about" cannot take the infinitive as an object. You can say "I am brooding about...whether to go shopping...which shirt to wear...how to impress him...my choice of vacation locations..." but not "I am brooding about to change." "I am brooding about whether to change the translation" is best. "I am brooding about changing the translation" would be acceptable. μηδείς (talk) 17:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Expressions like "that counts" or "that doesn't count" are not precisely a synonym of "matter". It's a colloquialism that implies a vote or a consensus. Something that "matters" has "substance", i.e. "weight" or "importance". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:00, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

European Esperanto Union
Our article on the European Esperanto Union has been nominated for deletion. I don't know if this organization meets our notability policy, so I tried finding some English language sources, but could only find one. But it seems to me that with a topic like this, there maybe additional sources which are not in English. After all, just because something is not notable in English doesn't mean it's not notable in other languages. But I only speak English, so I thought that maybe the editors of the Language Reference desk might want to help out in determining whether or not this topic meets WP:GNG. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick google search did not lead me to find any reliable source in Esperanto, only comments or mentions on press articles/websites. The French wikipedia Article has a bit more than the one in English. I could find these 2 French language pages, not sure if they qualify:  . --Lgriot (talk) 08:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)