Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 November 12

= November 12 =

Image of Fatimah
I've just posted a question at Reference desk/Humanities asking for some information on an image. Thought I would cross post here as the image has some, what I assume is, Arabic script. If anyone is willing to take a look and see what the script says it might help. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

pronunciation of "surely"
In which American dialect is the word "surely" pronounced identically to shirley? In my American dialect, they are just not homophones, because I pronounce the -ir to sound like the -er sound in better or greater, and I pronounce the -ur sound to sound like -oor in moor or boor. 140.254.229.115 (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Forvo has six pronunciations indexed at http://www.forvo.com/search/surely/.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Your IP suggests that you're in or near where the "Ohio Valley accent" prevails, so that might have something to do with it. Farther west in the midwest, moor and more are homophones, as are bore and boor, pour and poor... and shirley and surely. I think we know that to say those words the "right" way, we should pronounce the "u" or "oo" or "ou" sounds more like the the "oo" in "food". But we typically don't. I was going to say "roof", but that varies between the "oo" in "food" and the "oo" in "look", so it's not the best comparison. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What accent are you? 140.254.229.115 (talk) 17:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Primarily Illinois (not Chicago). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Leslie Nielsen was Canadian. Matt Deres (talk) 17:34, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * And Robert Hays was born in Maryland and raised in California. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

140.254.229.115 -- There could be several factors which could lead to "surely" and "Shirley" being pronounced similarly without there being an unconditional and uniform merger of /ɜːr/ and /uːr/ in a dialect, such as [ʃ] often being pronounced with some degree of lip-rounding, or "sure" frequently being unstressed then restressed, and then the pronunciation of "sure" influencing the pronunciation of the related word "surely"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, if anything I think that the vowels differ in most dialects, but this is obscured if "surely" is pronounced unstressed. In my dialect the words have the same vowels as for and girl.  See English-language vowel changes before historic /r/. μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Like with the somewhat exaggerated Valley Girl pronunciation of "for sure" as "fir shir". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:51, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know if that "fir shir" expression is a merger or a lone item, but to clarify, I meant my dialect has surely /ʃɔrli/ and Shirley //ʃɜrli/ using the r-vowels as at Help:IPA for English. I can see reducing surely to shirley when unstressed, but not pronouncing shirley to rhyme with the citation form of surely. While the joke in Airplane is certainly linguistic, its humor is ultimately as a running gag, not in the funny nature of the accent. μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It was actually used only once in that movie, which was enough to make it famous in the world of corny jokes. And to this midwesterner, it sounded totally natural. "Surely you can't be serious." "I am serious, and don't call me Shirley." Obviously, there's no joke if he says "shoorly". (Nowadays there could be a whole other joke, on the word "serious" vs. however you spell that cellphone application.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Surely you can't be serious? I thought it was used about three times.  Of course there's also the Li'l ole Jive talkin white lady.... -- Medeis 19:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * June Cleaver was a mother with many talents. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * As I recall, it was only used this one time. That would have caught the audience off guard. After that, they would have seen it coming. But I haven't seen the movie for a while, so I could be wrong. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This series of clips indicates it was at least twice. The second time, there was a slight delay before Nielsen made his followup comment. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:42, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * William Labov showed that people's pronunciations of words often vary depending on whether they are speaking rapidly and unselfconsciously or they believe that their speech is being scrutinized. Probably most Americans would pronounce surely and Shirley distinctly if they intended to pronounce the words carefully and correctly for an audience.  However, probably most Americans (perhaps except for certain dialects, such as perhaps that of the Ohio Valley) would pronounce the two words identically in unselfconscious fluent speech.  Marco polo (talk) 20:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's the case where I'm from (eastern Iowa). Pronouncing sure/surely as anything but /ʃɚ/ and /ʃɚli/ I'd take as non-local, even in careful speech.  (When I overpronounce it humorously, it's homophonous with shore).  "Fir shir" is something said without a hint of irony or reference, it's just how "for sure" is pronounced here.  Lsfreak (talk) 22:41, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

A question to ask is "Are purr and pure perfect rhymes?" That is, are purr and pure pronounced exactly the same, except for the presence of a pronounced "y" consonant in the second word. Only if this is the case is there a complete merger of traditional /ɜːr/ and /uːr/. I think that the two are not completely merged in many so-called "General American" type dialects... `AnonMoos (talk) 09:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * So you mean that pure would be said "pyer", (/pjɜr/) to rhyme with her and purr? I have never noticed such a thing myself, although I can imagine it.  You'll get lowering to rhyme with for as in my dialect or fronting to sound like peer, almost /pjyr/ in the West. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Some people above made statements which seemed to imply that "purr" and "pure" would perfectly rhyme in their dialect, but I think that dialects with unconditional merger of traditional /ɜːr/ and /uːr/ in all circumstances are not all that widespread. AnonMoos (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


 * cur, purr vs. cure, pure. I think they're close but not quite identical, if you take out the hidden "y". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


 * In my dialect, historical /uːr/ does not unconditionally merge with historical /ɜːr/, but it also does not usually have lip-rounding (unless perhaps in some cases when next to labial consonants, or when consciously trying to emphasize the contrast with historical /ɜːr/). Not exactly sure how to transcribe it; perhaps [ɨr], or a higher-tongue version of the symbols ɚ, ɝ is needed... AnonMoos (talk) 08:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, my name is Paul and I was born in northern Illinois in 1984 and have lived there more than 85% of my life. I have lived almost 100% of my life in either northern Illinois or Wisconsin.  I regularly use /pjɜɹ/ (with the "ure" in pure sounding like the "ur" in nurse, burn or turn [also as in the "olo" or colonel!, but that's another headache]) as well as regularly using /pjuːɹ/ (with the "ure" in pure sounding like the "our" in tour).  When I use /pjuːɹ/ it often sounds like /pjuː.ər/, with the "ure" of pure sounding like the "uer" or truer; making pure have two, only slightly distinguishable, syllables.  I don't know my own usage of it all that well, but I think if I am speaking moderately loosely or without any special emphasis on the words I am using I use /pjɜɹ/, kind of like I use contractions (like gonna [going to], wanna [want to] or hafta [have to]).  You know when you have a conversational rhythm going and you aren't self conscious of your speaking.  But if I am emphasizing ideas and speaking with more articulation, really trying to get a point across, or just speaking more formally or with more enunciation than normal, that is when I think I would be more prone to use /pjuːɹ/ or /pjuː.ər/.

Arabic and Tifinagh help
Would anyone mind posting the Arabic and Tifinagh at File:Tifinagh writing.JPG? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Can't help with the Tifinagh, but the top line of Arabic is "المتاجر التضامنية و المنصفة". The bottom line is "بيع منتوجات الفلاحين الصغار". Adam Bishop (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 07:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Spelling of Surname
Could you please advise the origin of the surname Baroudas and is there a surname with part of the spelling containing swyzx. Thank you Sonya58.165.104.56 (talk) 22:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Need Kurrent help
Any Really Old Germans here? I'm having trouble decoding some entries in a 1890s bible, and the script predates Sütterlin. In particular, I've got two entries in which I can't make out one of the words -- a word common to both:
 * Eduard seine Hochzeit xxr im Jahre 1897 den 31 Maerz.

In "xxr", I think the middle letter is "a", because it matches the second letter of "Jahre"; but the first letter just doesn't seem to be "w", and even if it is, "Edward his wedding was..." doesn't make grammatical sense. Is there any other word this could be besides "war"?

What's everybody's favorite image hosting site? I think I could scan the page and upload it if there's someone who'd like to look at the original script.

Suggestions encouraged -- thanks!

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The Kurrent w is a bit tricky, the German bible entry uses the His genitive common in colloquial German, so the expected word is definitely "war". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow! All the German I've learned and worked with here and there -- including University level -- I've never heard of nor been taught that construct.  Good call, sir, and vielen Dank!
 * --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It is needed for understanding German president Johannes Rau's joke: "Ernst Kuzorra seine Frau ihr Stadion" (Ernst Kuzorra his wife her stadium). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * . .. or Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod ---Sluzzelin talk  01:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

P.S. ...
--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 16:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there some reason why those Really Old Germans didn't use "heiraten" in some form?
 * Is this construct used today, perhaps to indicate that the speaker is a "Country bumpkin" or some such?
 * (a) The verb deals more with the action, the noun with the event. The noun is o.k. here. To be added that the substandard construction with "noun + was" (i.e. "Hochzeit war") is the only way to form the preterite in colloquial German or e.g. in Pennsylvania German (see Preterite). The alternate construction "verb in preterite" (i.e. "heiratete") is standard or formal German.
 * (b) We use this construct (his genitive in general) every day in colloquial German speech. It is substandard, but nevertheless it serves as genitive, for most German dialects and ways of colloquial speaking have no genitive (and no future tense) at all. You say you never heard it. In TV or radio, books or newspapers you will never hear or see it, and if I talk to you in German I will not use it. So no chance for you to hear it. If I ask my colleague in our Rhine Franconian dialect: "Wann iss'n demm Eduard sei Beerdichung?" (when is the Eduard his burial?) he will answer "Demm sei Beerdichung is moije um drei" (that one his burial is tomorrow at three). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Commas
Hello, I used to be very good at English, being a reasonably educated native speaker, but, having spent a while using German in Germany, where sentence structure (and the use of commas) is entirely different, I find myself often questioning where they go in English sentences. Is this correct punctuation: "I find that, to truly get over something, one has to try it one last time after they quit."? I guess the commas there serve a parenthetical function, but the sentence wouldn't have the same meaning without the clause contained within the commas. Many thanks for any help you can provide! Kind regards, 81.101.120.9 (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Most people nowadays would omit the comma after that, and somehat fewer would also omit the one after something. Your punctuation, however, would have been perfectly acceptable in Dickens's day. Specifically, many style guides recommend that a dependent clause or long phrase that follows a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence ("He looked at me, and after sighing deeply, he turned and walked away") or a relative pronoun, as in your example, be followed but not preceded by a comma. We tend to use less punctuation than formerly, when English was punctuated more like German. Deor (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you ever so much! I prefer a more formal writing style than most, and I prefer over-punctuation to under-punctuation, so I will stick with it, as long as it is acceptable in this day and age.
 * Just on a side note, I would have punctuated your example sentence as "He looked at me and, after sighing deeply, he turned and walked away", as there the commas would definitely be serving a parenthetical function. 81.101.120.9 (talk) 01:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The way it was explained to me in college German was that English uses commas like parentheses and for prefacing comments, in lists of more than two items, or to mark off subordinate clauses, while in German it was used whenever there was subordination, like Ich weiß, dass sie klug ist. In the get over something example, I would have used either two commas or none. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way, your use of the singular they in your example sentence is jarring. Better by far to say "...one has to try it one last time after quitting". --Viennese Waltz 05:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I was gonna comment that, the way I was taught, "one" never takes a pronoun. So, the pedantic version would be: I find that, to truly get over something, one has to try it one last time after one quits.  But I've mentioned this here before and found myself rebuffed by less antediluvian editors (some of them may even be postdiluvian).  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks to you both; it is worth my bearing in mind. 81.101.120.9 (talk) 22:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)