Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 November 15

= November 15 =

What word means "cousin or sibling"
I'm looking for a single word that means "cousin or sibling". I can refer to all my brothers and sisters collectively as my siblings; how could I refer collectively to all my siblings and first cousins? 63.116.23.136 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge, English has no such word. Do you have a reason for believing that such a word exists? --Trovatore (talk) 04:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Family? Hot Stop talk-contribs 04:30, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I've no reason to believe that such a word exists, but reason to use one if it does. I'm updating some software, the current version has a button "add siblings" which adds (to a list of files to process) files with the same parent directory. The user has requested an "add cousins" button that will add files with the same grandparent directory. What they really want is "add siblings and cousins" but that won't fit on the button, hence I'm looking for a single word descriptor. ("Add cousins" is wrong, because the desired functionality is cousins and siblings, not just cousins. Likewise the suggested "family" is not specific enough.) 63.116.23.136 (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest you add a pull-down menu, from which you could choose:


 * Or:


 * StuRat (talk) 05:14, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You could make a case that collateral relative fits the bill. But I think I'd abandon the family metaphor for a concise description of what you actually want to do: add files to parent directory or higher. - Nunh-huh 05:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

63.116.23.136 -- Some languages with a "Hawaiian" system of kinship terminology have such a word, but English doesn't... AnonMoos (talk) 06:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * There isn't one single word in English for what you describe, but I can offer the phrase "generational cohort" for people of the same generation as you. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

If forced to you could say my grandparent's grandchildren. There's probably a word cogenerationalist or the like somewhere in the anthropology literature. Or you could borrow a word from one of the languages that uses the Hawaiian system. μηδείς (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The general word for "relations of any kind" is "kin." Collect (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

IPA vowels and consonants
Where can I find a list of the IPA's vowels and consonants- with the records of the pronunciations? I would like to understand two IPA's forms that are shown in this page. Thank you for the help. 5.28.173.168 (talk) 11:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Try our own IPA pulmonic consonant chart with audio and IPA vowel chart with audio (although I'm not certain all recordings are absolutely precise, they ought to be good enough for a first rough orientation). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/ --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for that link (although I think the [e, ɛ, o, ɔ] entries are decidedly more close than in an authoritative IPA recording I once heard). Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm still unable to recognize these two symbols in the site that mention above. Thank you for the help 5.28.173.168 (talk) 13:24, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Which ones do you mean, "ð" and "ə"? The first is the voiced interdental fricative, the second is the schwa. You'll find phonetic descriptions and sound samples in these two articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are. So, what that page says is that there are two pronunciations of the article "THE" depending of beginning of the word? (the & tha)5.28.173.168 (talk) 13:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It says that the two pronunciations, in normal discourse, are "thuh" and "thee" (with th indicating voiced "th" and ee indicating a short or "clipped" ee sound). The pronunciation "thee" with a full or long ee sound is normally used only when the word is being specially emphasized, as in "Your name may be Mario Lanza, but you're not the Mario Lanza". Deor (talk) 16:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I've got it. Can you please tell me what are the other two symbols there in the same table of fingers? (j&^)5.28.173.168 (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What the page linked to actually says is that the is pronounced [ðə] (= "thuh") before a consonant sound and [ði] (= "thee") before a vowel sound. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The 'j' is IPA for a palatal approximant, the sound which is usually written 'y' in English (as in 'yacht', 'yoke'). (The letter 'j' was chosen because that is the sound of that letter in German, and in pretty well all European languages that use the Roman alphabet, apart from French and languages further West). The 'ʌ' represents an open-mid back unrounded vowel, which is used in many (but not all) accents of English for words like 'sun' and 'button'. The article is distinguishing the two common pronunciations of the letter 'u': /ju/, as in 'unit', and /ʌ/ as in 'under', because the first of these starts with a semivowel, and so 'the' behaves as for a consonant-initial word. --ColinFine (talk) 03:16, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Now it's clear. Thank you a lot! 213.57.96.70 (talk) 07:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Name of literary device
There's a device in which … well, rather than explaining it, how about I just give 2 examples:


 * To tell the story of [Samuel Taylor] Coleridge without opium is to tell the story of Hamlet without the ghost (Sir Leslie Stephen)


 * To have published an obituary of Tom Driberg without mentioning homosexuality would have been like publishing an obituary of Maria Callas without mentioning opera (The Times, obituary of Driberg)

Is there a name for this, apart from, perhaps, analogy? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Nope. Just simple parallel construction quite akin to "A day without orange juice is like a day without sunshine."  It is a variant of Simile q.v. and, to the best of my knowledge, has no separate name given by pedants. Collect (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Collect. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Arabic help requested

 * 1. How do you type the Arabic text seen here? File:Alhoudderborn.JPG -- Is it "أسواق و ملحمة الهدى" ?
 * 2. How do you type the Arabic text in File:Dearborn Mosque Michigan.JPG
 * 3. How do you type the Arabic text in File:شارع وورن في ديربورن.jpg?
 * 4. How do you say "Gay people in the Syrian war" and "Here is an article on gay people suffering in the Syrian war" in Arabic?

For 4. I am making a post at ar:ويكيبيديا:مشروع ويكي الوطن العربي (talkpage of the WikiProject Syria at the Arabic Wikipedia) - An English post I made was removed so I am asking for Arabic help so the post will be in Arabic. The post said:
 * "Gay people in the Syrian war Here is an article on gay people suffering in the Syrian war.
 * Smith, Hannah Lucinda. "How Jihadists Are Blackmailing, Torturing, and Killing Gay Syrians." (Archive) Vice.
 * Please use it as a source"

Thank you, WhisperToMe (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * There's actually an "embassy" forum page for non-Arabic speakers on the Arabic Wikipedia (though it was unable to offer any useful help when what I thought was a very straightforward and simple edit apparently got caught up in a minor backwater of the sometimes very strange internal politics over there)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I do use the embassy page to post translation requests. However, I would like to get information about this article into the Wikiproject for Syria over there. I posted this article in the relevant projects in the English Wikipedia. Anyway what internal politics do you find to be strange in there?WhisperToMe (talk) 08:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * My knowledge of Arabic is really not good enough for me to be able to understand the details, but as of a few years ago, it certainly seemed that some people were able to cause information that they considered religiously or politically sensitive to be deemphasized, not by means of crude edit wars, but by means of a kind of subtle web of quasi-intimidation and skewed expectations. Even though my ability to conduct discussions in Arabic is extremely rudimentary at best, at certain points it seemed to depend on me to prevent ثالوث from being absurdly shunted off to تثليث (مسيحية) (while ثالوث was filled with material on tritheism), or being overwhelmed with stuff on لاثالوثية ... Anyway, part of the reason why I started doing a little editing on Arabic Wikipedia was that its article coverage of national flags was quite fragmentary for a long time, and part of the reason why I stopped was that I couldn't find an Arabic translation of "naval jack" no matter how big the dictionary I looked in... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't help for number 4, but for the signs:
 * 1. "أسواق و ملحمة الهدى" ("Al-Houda markets and meat store")
 * 2. "الجمعية الاسلامية الامريكية - مسجد ديربورن" ("American Islamic Society - Dearborn Mosque")
 * 3. " مطعم ﺁلشباب" (same, "Al-Chabaab Restaurant"), then underneath that "ملك الطبخ و المشاوي البلدي و الفروج" (which looks like "king of cooking..." but it probably means "cooked goods, country-style barbecue and chicken"). In the windows it says "الكباب الحلبي" ("Aleppo-style kebab") and "اشهي و اطيب الكباب والماكولات السورية والحلبية" ("best and most delicious Syrian and Aleppan kebabs and food"). The billboard says "اسواق السلام" (same as the English, or "Salaam markets"). The other store says "الشرق الاوسط الحوالات المالية", same as the English, "Middle East Financial Services". There is also another sign further down the street on the opposite side, " ملحمة و مسمكة نور الزهراء", also the same as the English, "Noor al-Zahraa Fish and Meat Market" (although it actually says "meat and fish market" in Arabic). Adam Bishop (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! I am adding the 3. stuff as annotations. Do you know what the Arabic would be for:
 * "Shish kebab"
 * "Open" (meaning the business is open)
 * "Sheep Head Neefa"
 * "Kibbeh Bil-Siniye"
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 15:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Hopefully a native speaker (or at least someone with much better Arabic than me) can confirm or correct, but shish kebab is "شيش كباب" and kibbeh bil-siniye is "الكبة بالصينية". I think sheep head neefa is "الراس النيفة". I'm not sure what "open" is in this context (just "مفتوح"?) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Neefa and Sheep head are two different dishes. Neefa being brisket of a sheep, sheep head being just that. Rmhermen (talk) 07:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)