Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 November 17

= November 17 =

Russian-to-English translation
What is an English translation of the paragraph beginning with the words "Обширные пахотные территории" at http://www.russkie.org/index.php?module=fullitem&id=30822? I am interested in using it to expand the article "Toxic 100". To avoid copyright problems, I refrained from copying the entire paragraph. —Wavelength (talk) 00:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC) and 00:27, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * My Russian is very, very poor, but from what I can understand it points out that DuPont, which is investing in agriculture in the Ukraine, is listed as number four on the Political Economy Research Institute's list of the Toxic 100. Maybe mentioning Lüboslóv Yęzýkin would get the attention of a person capable of a complete translation. :)  --William Thweatt TalkContribs 05:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw the topic but was doing some other stuff. I'll try to do the translation a little later if somebody does not do it before me.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The vast arable territories not yet leased to the Chinese will become the territory for cultivation of necessary "European" cultures, as experts say, these will be rape, sunflower, maize which quickly impoverish the soil. The experience of investments by Western companies into Ukraine only approves this, money is being invested into production of harmful GMO-plants, for example a campaign is being actively expanded by DuPo, which is in the 4th place of "Toxic 100", the rating of the most environmental unfriendly companies in the USA made by the Political Economy Research Institute. Not to mention the alcohol and tobacco production, the quality of the latter bewilders even omnivorous heavy-smokers.
 * You owe me 10 bucks! :)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Большое спасибо! (Thank you very much!) I have expanded the article with information from your translation.  Maybe in the future I will be proficient enough in Russian to translate such material myself.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Dao lo lai le in Putonghua
What exactly would Dao lo lai le mean? My family is on good relations (30 years) with the proprietors of the local Chinese restaurant. I taught him to say Gwei lo lai le. when he enters the restaurant, that it would make them laugh, which it has, many times. This weekend they said he should say Dao lo lai le instead. Can someone give the proper tones? The proper ideograms? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 00:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Which romanization system are you using? I only know Pinyin, but by comparing the two phrases you gave, the second one is almost certainly 大佬来了 (da4 lao3 lai2 le1 in Pinyin).  大佬 is a very colloquial word meaning "big shot", "gangster", etc.
 * As an aside, Gweilo is more Cantonese than Putonghua, even though most Mandarin speakers will understand it. In Putonghua we usually say 老外 as a friendly term, and 鬼子 or 洋鬼 as a racial slur (similar to "nigger" but not quite as negative).  --Bowlhover (talk) 06:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, she (the owner) told him it meant "big boss" or "gangster". I was there, and heard the translation, but didn't want to prejudice the result here by giving what she had said.  The full story is that I suggested over the summer that my dad announce "Gweilo lai le" when he went to pick up the take out.  I told him the meaning, and the proprietors thought it was very funny.  They told him they spoke Mandarin, and told him that they said "Gwei lao", not "Gwei lo".  I suspect this may be the result of a dialect, I do not know where they come from, and maybe you can comment?  This last weekend we went out, and it has gotten to the point that they are disappointed if he doesn't say something in Mandarin.  But when he said "Gwei lao lai le" this time they suggested he should say "Dao lo lai le"--"not "da lao", unless I am losing it--and told him it means "big boss" or "gangster".  In English one would spell it "Dow low lye luh", in case you doubt my attempted Pinyin.  This is very interesting, does it sound like they are maybe speaking some non-standard dialect?  (I have said "Ni men hao ma? and Putonghua to them before and been undertood perfectly.)  μηδείς (talk) 06:53, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * That's interesting. The standard Mandarin pronunciation of 鬼佬 is guǐ lǎo, which matches with what the proprietor said.  But 大佬 shares the second character with gui lao, yet she pronounced it differently?  Did you manage to catch the tones?  There might be some dialect in which that's the case (almost every city has its pronunciation quirks), but I'm not at all familiar with dialects.  Hopefully someone who grew up in China can comment, or failing that, you can ask on the Chinese reference desk.  --Bowlhover (talk) 16:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, she did say that gweilo in Mandarin was pronounced differently, ending in lao. When you said the term was Da lao, I suspected the second syllable was the same as in gwi lao.  I suspect they are mixing Cantonese and perhaps another dialect with Mandarin. Is it possible dao lo is the Cantonese version of da lao?


 * When I asked, the owner said they spoke Mandarin, and I have heard her say "medeis lai le" to the kitchen when I have gone to pick up things and they weren't ready yet. I have not asked where they are from, or what other dialects they speak.  They have been in the US since quite a bit before Tiananmen Square, and the subject seems indelicate.


 * As for tones, I am useless. I can mimic a phrase when I hear it, but I can't retain the tomes in memory or discriminate contrasts. μηδείς (talk) 19:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The Lament of the Negligent Librarian: "I can't retain the tomes". :) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  17:53, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Comma-n situation
Should one use two commas or one in something like "For example, in the article[,] the writer discusses ..."? I see it frequently with just one, but it doesn't really seem quite right to me. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Fowler would agree with you - see here. Tevildo (talk) 02:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks (although I may need a translator to figure out what he's saying). Clarityfiend (talk) 08:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * "For example" itself is set off by commas. It is not seen in the example CF gives, since there are no initial commas.  But: One has to be conscious of the tension between adherence to style and adherence to meaning.  Translators, for example, in translating the Bible, tend to use far less poetic license than they might with other texts.  Of course one might reword that to avoid s many commas, but as written it is correct. μηδείς (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Xidan Primary School
At http://archive.is/pNVJd I want to make sure it is saying: WhisperToMe (talk) 04:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Predecessor was a private school, Jiemin Primary School
 * Given to municipal control in 1953
 * Not sure what happened in 1958 (merger between two schools?)
 * Given current name in August 2002


 * Yes
 * More precisely to the Ministry of Education. I don't know if it's municipal.
 * Merger between 3 schools: Jiemin, 西单头条 primary school, and 白庙 primary school
 * Yes --Bowlhover (talk) 05:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 09:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

French subjunctive
Bonjour à tous,

Why is the subjunctive used in the phrases "Maudite soit la guerre" and (in a scientific context) "on obtient r=3/2c, soit 3/2 avec c=1"? They don't seem to follow the typical usage pattern of placing a subjective after que, expressing doubt/emotion. Thanks!--Bowlhover (talk) 06:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There are probably grammar sites that explain it better, but for starters, this is from French Wikipedia's article on Subjonctif:
 * "Le subjonctif non précédé de que existe :
 * des expressions consacrées : Vive le Roi ! ou Vivent les mariés !
 * en mathématiques : Soient deux droites AB et CD…
 * dans le style littéraire : Passent les jours, les années, ce souvenir ne s’effacera jamais.
 * ou bien dans Sauve qui peut !
 * en langue soutenue, il existe un emploi atypique du subjonctif pour le verbe savoir à la forme négative : Je ne sache pas qu'il en soit ainsi. Il exprime alors une affirmation atténuée."
 * ---Sluzzelin talk  06:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Effectively it's a third-person imperative in the maudite phrase, which is expressed in the subjunctive in French. The French subjunctive is often translated as "may he verb" in English. I am confused by the intended meaning of the scientific expression. μηδείς (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * In the scientific expressiom it just means "that is", like it's explaining the previous statement. That is a pretty normal usage, and although it is literally subjunctive, I bet a typical French person would not even recognize it as such. If you use two of them in sequence (like "soit l'un soit l'autre"), it also means "either...or". Adam Bishop (talk) 07:11, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We could translate the maths sentence: "we obtain r=3/2, which would be 3/2 if c=1". The subjunctive goes with the idea that c is not always one. In a non-maths context you could have "on visite toujours la capitale, soit Londres dans le cas de Grande Bretagne"; "we always visit the capital, which would be London in the case of Great Britain". I'm not sure if I can find a parallel with a verb other than être. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)