Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 November 25

= November 25 =

German and French
Does anyone know what you call a pairing of words which are German and French in origin, like "law and order"? Also, are there any more examples of such a phrase? →Σ σ ς. (Sigma) 06:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Should say 'a pairing of words which are Old English and French in origin'. The technical term for a pairing of words is hendiadys, of which this is a subset. There are so many hendiadys-es with OE and Fr components, especially in the legal area, that it has been thought they come from a bilingual period in English after 1066, when to obviate misunderstanding things were defined in both languages (though I only know of this theory by reading someone who pooh-poohed it). I'd like to have references on this. I think I read of it in a book on (by?) Marshall McLuhan, who was very interested in hendiadys towards the end of his life.Djbcjk (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Charles Rembar, in The Law of the Land supported that theory, suggestign that often there was a triple, using words drived from Old English, Norman French, and Latin. "Give, devise and bequeath" was one example that he cited. There are also many cases where the word for a cooked meat is derived from French, while the name of the animal is derived from Old English. "Veal" is one such case. DES (talk) 17:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I recall that devise and bequeath are technically different – devise is used for a gift of real property, and bequeath for personal property. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure if these are true hendiadyses, but common word pairings in English include justice and right, token and pledge and will and testament. Only will and testament mean exactly the same thing; in the other phrases, the words have slightly different meanings. — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:19, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Notice will and testament is OE + Fr. Are they always in this order? Djbcjk (talk) 08:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Add cease and desist and assault and battery. That last one seems to put the French first. StuRat (talk) 08:37, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * See our article on legal doublet. (In cease and desist and assault and battery, both elements are Romance though). Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:41, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * A visiting lecturer at law school once explained that cease and desist wasn't simply repeating the same thing, as it means "stop now, and do not start up again in future". I was going to say something, but undergraduates (and especially undergraduates who are amateur dabblers in linguistics) simply do not interrupt Supreme Court Justices.  It's interesting to note that two French derogatory words for the English - Les goddams and rosbif - combine a Germanic followed by a Romance element. --Shirt58 (talk) 09:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Assault and battery aren't the same either. Technically, an assault is "an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact" (this is from our article on the subject). All that is required is an apprehension of contact, not contact itself. Thus, if I advance towards a person while rolling up my sleeves, and say, "I'm going to punch your brains out," that is an assault. Battery, on the other hand, requires physical contact. — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * If it were not assize-time, I'd say that cease and desist do actually mean the same thing, but then this thread might end up on a frolic of its own :-) --Shirt58 (talk) 11:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, so you're claiming that they do mean the same thing? I think you're just wrong, then.  The "visiting lecturer" was quite correct &mdash; cease means "stop", whereas "desist" means "don't do it anymore". --Trovatore (talk) 17:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * One example of a Germanic/Romance pairing is "bits and pieces", but there are also Germanic/Germanic ones ("might and main", "time and tide") and Romance/Romance ones ("vim and vigor", "null and void"). English speakers seem to like such pairings, especially when they're alliterative (indeed, they are frequent in medieval English alliterative verse). Deor (talk) 13:01, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There are quite a few examples from the Bible. I vaguely remember hearing somewhere there was a Hebrew literary figure of repetition.  "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise."  (Psalm 100, somewhat seasonally relevant in the US).  I would be curious to know whether we have an article on this figure.
 * In at least one case, it's the root of what is arguably a serious misconstrual: "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life" (Matthew 7:14).  Strait and narrow are pretty much exact synonyms, but the phrase has morphed into "the straight [sic] and narrow", where "straight" seems to have a connotation of doing what's expected of one.  That's very different from the passage in question, which suggests that whatever most people are doing is probably the wrong thing. --Trovatore (talk) 21:34, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * With regard to the curiosity expressed at the end of your first paragraph, the topic is sketchily covered in Biblical poetry and is mentioned in various other places, as in Robert Lowth. Deor (talk) 22:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks; that is indeed helpful. --Trovatore (talk) 22:54, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

"I don't know who is he". Is this an acceptable sentence in the spoken language?
I don't know where are you, I don't know why are you crying, and likewise... 77.125.248.237 (talk) 10:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No. You need to say "I don't know who he is", "I don't know where you are", "I don't know why you are crying".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * See Content clause, noting particularly the statement that "direct questions normally use subject-verb inversion, while indirect questions do not". Deor (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Sunday = week
Are there any other languages except for Slavics where Sunday also means "week"?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * In Tagalog "Linggo" means Sunday and "linggo" means week. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:46, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the assumption in your question really true? I played with google translator and it seems to me that having one and the same word for "Sunday" and "week" is an exception even among Slavic languages. In fact, Russian and Serbian were was the only one s I found. There are tons of languages, however, whose word for Sunday means "week" in Russian (as opposed to "week" in that language). Is this perhaps what you meant? For example, in Polish the word niedziela, AFAIK, does NOT also mean week (which would be tydzień).Asmrulz (talk) 15:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The word 礼拜 (禮拜 in traditional characters) can mean both "Sunday" and "week" in Mandarin Chinese. Marco polo (talk) 16:25, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Asmrulz, re your There are tons of languages, however, whose word for Sunday means "week" in Russian (as opposed to "week" in that language). I've read it numerous times but it presents an insuperable challenge to comprehension. Can you please explain what you mean?  Thanks.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:56, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * In Russian неделя meant simultaneously "Sunday" and "week" since its earliest attestation in the 11th until at least the 17th century, the second meaning then prevailed and воскресенье became the word for Sunday. Common Slavic neděl’a has or had both meanings in all the Slavics including Old Polish and dialectal Polish.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That would explain why Monday is ponedelnik in Russian! — Kpalion(talk) 18:47, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I never knew that. Never in a months of Sundays..... <- probably unrelated, but could it be? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:00, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This Slavic peculiarity looks like usual synecdoche. Hence I'd like to know about similar cases in other languages. By the way, there is also another word for week: седмица "sevendays" which is now archaic.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We have the very archaic 'senight' ('seven nights') in English according to my old primary school teacher when I was 10. I'm 40 now, and I haven't heard the word since. We of course have 'fortnight' ('fourteen nights'), too. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:59, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the other way around in Bulgarian: седмица is standard for "week", and неделя is archaic for "week" but standard for "Sunday". --Theurgist (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

In Cambodian, ថ្ងៃអាទិត្យ means "Sunday" (literally, "day sun") and អាទិត្យ (, from Sanskrit āditya, "sun") means week. The native Khmer word for "sun", tʰŋaj also means "day". Thai is similar: วันอาทิตย์ ([wan aːtʰit]) is "Sunday", อาทิตย์ ([aːtʰit]) can mean "sun" or "week".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

The actual spelling of the archaic English term seems to be sennight, or alternatively se'nnight, according to various dictionary references I found online. --Theurgist (talk) 21:12, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

In Korean, ko:주일 can mean week and can also mean Sunday in a church context. The two meanings are spelled and pronounced the same in Korean, but they are not etymologically related. (They have different Chinese characters.) --Amble (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)