Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 October 17

= October 17 =

Length of texts
I found a camera's user manual written in English and Russian.The English text is one page long whereas the Russian text is about 1.5 pages i.e. 50% longer.Is it due to Russian words being longer? In which language the same thing can be expressed in written form in the shortest way ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.199.253.53 (talk) 06:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but not too much, a Russian text is 10-20% longer on average than an English one if you count letters. Russian letters are also a little wider on average, so more space is required.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * To know what language is shortest one could take the same text in different languages and compare. I took the UDHR and counted letters/characters. Below is the results for some languages. I only took some but one can count every language of the UDHR or take for example the New Testament.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * That's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, presumably? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously. I'm pretty sure this abbreviation does not mean anything else in 99% cases.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was unfamiliar with the initialisation and needed to look it up, that's all. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand, but when I tried googling, it gave me only this. Frankly, I was also surprised that this abbreviation has no other meanings.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Uruguayan Department of Health and Rehabilitation? Ultracrepidarian Diaskeuasis of Heterochthonous Rhopalisms?--   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Google has already indexed you, lol.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a well-known principle in software Internationalization and localization that one should allow for the fact that translations of text (e.g. error message) from English to other languages may need more space. For example this guideline suggests allowing 40% extra. Ignoring this can lead at best to truncation or ugly word-wrapping, and at worst to dangerous bugs such as buffer overflow. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * One previous ref-desk thread on this topic is here. There have been others. Deor (talk) 13:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Lyuboslov, how did you obtain these values? I'm curious to know the values for languages like Bulgarian, Greek and Armenian. I imagine they'd be pretty high, given for example Bulgarian's lack of a case system and excessive use of affixation (including definite articles) and prepositional clauses. --Theurgist (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I copy-pasted the text for each language from here into Notepad++ (and saved just in case, "one file - one language", but it's not necessary). Then I went to its menu "View>Information", it gave me statistics. In MS Excel I made a table with the results. The numbers above are not too precise, it counts spaces and punctuation also but I think this is also quite important in any text. If you want to count only letters, go to "Find" menu and enter \w, it then will give you precise numbers.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was curious and compared Russian and Bulgarian. Now I counted only alphanumerics and got 9370 for Bulgarian and 9909 for Russian. Not too much difference. Then I counted vowels and got 4138 for Bulgarian and 4248 for Russian. Much closer. So knowing that one vowel = one syllable we got the numbers of syllables. And as you can see it is comparable to Chinese or Korean, Russian and Bulgarian even are more compact. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And finally, I counted English sounds (in RP) in the UDHR. I got 7506 sounds, from which 3006 vowels (that is syllables). English is even much more compact. To compare: Chinese text has 2690 characters, Korean has 3395 Hangeul syllables (the numbers from the table above is too high because of spaces counted).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If included in your table, Greek ranks second only to Hausa. --Theurgist (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And the old WWII joke about redundant Japanese looks for real: the Japanese text has 4337 vowels/syllables.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:28, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

There's also the matter of direction of translation. Something originally written in and then strictly translated into English might be longer than the source because the original thought is more economic in the language it was composed in. Note the following poem has 26 letters in the first line in Russian, 36 in the first line in English (from http://lyricstranslate.com/en/ya-vas-ljubil-ya-vas-lyubil-i-loved-you-once.html)

http://lyricstranslate.com Я Вас любил...)

Я вас любил: любовь еще, быть может, В душе моей угасла не совсем; Но пусть она вас больше не тревожит; Я не хочу печалить вас ничем. Я вас любил безмолвно, безнадежно, То робостью, то ревностью томим; Я вас любил так искренно, так нежно, Как дай вам бог любимой быть другим.

I loved you once

I loved you once, and perhaps that love has yet To be extinguished completely within my soul But don't let it trouble you any longer I don't wish to cause you any more sorrow I loved you silently, hopelessly By shyness, I was tortured, or by jealousy I loved you so sincerely, so tenderly That I pray god lets you be loved that way by another.

μηδείς (talk) 16:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It gives 213 Russian letters vs. 240 English ones (counted without spaces and punctuation). Quite surprising.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Words in French from a song
I was listening to the song Stranded by Rihanna, Jay-Z and U2... at the end I can hear some words in French by Bono:
 * Hati va s'lever (Hati is going to stand up/raise) --> don't know which verb is better
 * Tu vas te relever (You are going to stand up/raise) --> don't know which verb is better
 * [some words I cannot understand]
 * Ensemble, ensemble, ensemble (Together, together, together)

Can someone please find out what says in the third line? And if the other lyrics are right. Thanks.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  12:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Stand up is a pretty good idiomatic translation here. The literal translation would be closer to "Haiti is going to lift itself; you're going to raise yourself" ("se" and "te" being reflexive object pronounds).  But stand up probably captures the sense of the song.  -- Jayron  32  12:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, thank you! Anything on the third line?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  12:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's good. Ensemble means "together", and I can't think of any other way to translate it here.  -- Jayron  32  13:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I mean, between Tu vas te relever and Ensemble... there is a line which I cannot understand, it's something like Nous nous s'veron/l'veron or something but I don't know any French word that is veron  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:04, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Haven't listened to the audio, but why not "Nous nous lèverons"? "Verrons" would be from "voir"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * We will stand up sounds great. Thanks! Finally I can undestand what Bono is saying.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It actually says "Nous nous élèverons" (we will elevate ourselves) - same meaning, pretty much, but different words. Effovex (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And thank you very much Jayron for your help and for letting me know the literal translation of the lines :D  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  15:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Glottal stop
I'm a German native speaker and I recently started to look at the IPA and came across with the glottal stop, a phenomenon which seems to occur constantly in German. One day, I read in a German book about Romance studies that the glottal stop is one of the reasons why Romance languages spoken by a German native speaker sounds choppy. Probably it's the same with English too. I would like to improve my pronunciation and prevent the glottal stop when speaking other languages. I think I can produce the glottal stop without vowel in an exaggerated manner in order to get an idea what the sound is like. However it's hard to control if I have just spoken the word with a glottal stop or not. Does it solve the problem if I don't make breaks between vowels as if they're nearly one syllable? Moreover, how to deal with a word beginning with a vowel? There is also another problem: My parents have never spoken any other language than Mandarin Chinese to me. I started to learn German in the kindergarten at the age of 2. Then my parents sent me to China for some months. Being back in Germany, I had forgotten all my German. I don't remember how old I exactly was, but definitely before attending school. I'm not sure if this had any impact on my speaking. Nonetheless, today I speak both languages without any accent. But I don't know if I erroneously do the glottal stop when speaking Chinese. I know the sound is almost not hearable, but I want to improve my pronunciation. Therefore, I need some advice also because I'm currently learning my third Romance language.--2.246.38.40 (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If you did speak Manadrin with initial glottal stops you would definitely sound like you had an accent. You might look at code switching.  When I speak (or attempt to speak) languages that distinguish between aspirated and unaspirated p, t, and k, like Mandarin, Zulu and Hindi, I think to myself, use an "English" t for aspirated, and use a Spanish t for unaspirated.  So putonghua has an "English" p and t, while beijing starts with a "Spanish" p.  You might try thinking of words that do not have initial glottals as if they were "Mandarin" rather than "Deutsch". μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, "don't make breaks between vowels as if they're nearly one syllable" describes it pretty well. Before a vowel-initial word, a glottal stop is not normal in English except when the word does not directly follow another word (i.e. the first word of a breath-group, or when speaking very slowly with emphasis), or when the previous word ends with a low or central vowel, such as /a/ or /ə/ (If it ends with a high vowel or diphthong, such as /i/, /aɪ/, /eɪ/, or /aʊ/, there is usually a glide rather than a glottal stop. This, I believe, is why 'the' has two allophones: normally it is pronounced with a schwa: /ðə/; but before a vowel sound, most speakers say /ði/). In a non-rhotic accent, as in most of England, many words ending -er are normally pronounced /-ə/, but before a vowel, the /r/ reappears, so outer is /aʊtə/, but outer office is /aʊtərɒfɪs/. In slow speech it might be /aʊtə ʔɒfɪs/. So pervasive is this that many speakers use the so-called intrusive R with words which never had an 'r', such as _area_: you often hear eg /ɛːrɪərəvknsɜːn/ rather than /ɛːrɪə ʔəvknsɜːn/ for _area of concern_. --ColinFine (talk) 22:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

What MLA format?
I'm trying to cite a Huffington Post thing (this) in MLA, but I'm not entirely clear on what MLA source type to use. This feels a bit like a stupid question, but what should I use? - Purplewowies (talk) 20:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If no one here gives you a satisfactory answer, just post the bare link, and some "wiki-gnome" will figure it out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-clement/cosplay-is-for-everyone_b_4108795.html That's the link, but I think a wikignome would be more likely to help if it were in an article and not my homework. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd use "article from an online magazine" format from this guide . 184.147.124.52 (talk) 00:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Sidewalk Shed
What is a sidewalk shed ? Which part of the building on the left constitutes the sidewalk shed, which has been removed one year later according to the right image's description ? Or is the image description wrong and a sidewalk shed hat not been removed, because none was there ? If this is not as sidewalk shed on the left, how is that roof above the sidewalk called instead ? Are the any other commons pictures showing a sidewalk shed ? -- Juergen(de) 91.52.155.168 (talk) 20:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard the term sidewalk shed before (we say footpath in Australia, and never say "footpath shed"), but it's clear from the context and the images that the term refers to extension of the roof to cover the footpath area, whereas the roof in the image on the right does not extend far beyond the walls of the structure.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


 * US American here and I've never heard the term before. Additionally, I'd call the walkway with a roof over it a covered sidewalk.  I have no further specialized term for the item though.  Dismas |(talk) 08:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Juergen 91.52.183.228 (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are specific uses of "shed" that might apply here. For example, here you'll find the lovely "rock shed" built on Highway 1 in Big Sur to keep boulders from plopping down on innocent unsuspecting drivers. --jpgordon:==( o ) 23:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Sidewalk shed" is commonplace in New York for a temporary shelter over the sidewalk to protect me against falling construction debris. wnyc.org Jim.henderson (talk) 00:16, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * From Wiktionary, a shed is "A slight or temporary structure built to shade or shelter something". When walls were added to the shed on the left, it was turned into the more permanent building on the right.--Wikimedes (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

La jeunesse
When the Malian president was thanking the French president for his intervention in the country, he said:

"Merci pour cette jeunesse qui revient à l’espoir, qui sait travailler de ses mains et de sa tête..."

If it's helpful, the entire transcript is here. What does "cette jeunesse" refer to? Does it mean the youth of Mali, or perhaps youthfulness? Is he thanking Hollande or other Malians? The other sentences beginning with "Merci pour" are clearly addressed to Hollande, but I'm having trouble understanding this one. --Bowlhover (talk) 23:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It's an odd way to say it, but he is thanking Hollande for giving the young people of Mali hope and the opportunity for a better life, etc. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Pour" in this case means "on behalf of". --Lgriot (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)