Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 October 20

= October 20 =

Pronunciation of mum
Is/was mum (mother) ever pronounced /mʊm/ in the North of Britain England? Was it pronounced in this manner in other dialects before the GVS?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * By North of Britain can I assume you mean northern England, rather than Scotland? (As most people would specify if they meant northern Scotland). If so, I was a bit thrown by the question, as as far as I was aware 'mum' is always pronounced as such. However, as I suspect you're alluding to, in the North (or North East, at least) you would more often hear 'mam'. I at least would consider this a distinct word from 'mum' as it is usually spelled the way it is pronounced. I would be very surprised to hear another Northerner say 'mam' when reading the written word 'mum', and similarly they would not write 'mum' when transcribing the word 'mam'.  AJ Cham  03:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I am unaware of "mum" being used in North America. It's mom, pronounced /mam/ in most places and /mɔm/ in a few others.  These may be post GVS innovations.  μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's used in Canada, at least by older generations (my mother refers to her mother with that pronunciation; I use the, I suppose, American pronunciation. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Etymology Online indicates "mom" as American English and "mum" as British English. About the only time I've ever heard "mum" is in British TV or films, and also in imitation of the British, referring to Queen Elizabeth's later mother as "the queen mum". (Well, of course also for the flowers known as mums. That's a different mum.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, England, obviously. I wonder whether it was always pronounced /mäm~mɐm~mʌm/ as in most European languages and the spelling mum was just a convention after the GVS (the OED gives M17 for this word and L16 for mam) or it was originally pronounced /mʊm/ in Middle/Early Modern English and Northerners pronounce it in such a way till today.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It's always "mum" in Australia, never "mom", and when our local girl Olivia Newton-John made A Mom for Christmas, it didn't really work for Australians. Wasn't the most profound movie anyway. HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * (OR) I would agree that "mam" is a distinct word from "mum" here in the north-east of England, both in written and spoken forms. You also hear "mammy" for "mummy" with younger children. Someone representing Geordie on the page would never write "mum". You will find birthday cards printed with both forms in shops, although I can't recall ever noticing a "mam" card for sale outside the region. It functions as a shibboleth and mam-users are unlikely to adopt the mum-form which is seen as "posh" and not local. My husband's stepfather has always referred to me, when speaking to my children, as "your mam", even though as an incomer I use the mum-form and so do my children. When speaking to young children I know are mam-users I will adjust my speech, but it feels really odd to do so. -  Ka renjc (talk) 08:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As I asked some time ago is it a little difficult for those (especially Northerners) who does not have /ʌ/ (which in today Southern British English is closer to [ɐ]) in their dialect to pronounce it clearly and distinguish from /æ/ [ä]? If a Northerner say [mäm] I wonder how he says southern [mɐm] as [ä] and [ɐ] look too close to distinguish.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There's quite a bit of variation amongst Northerners when they try to imitate RP. An amusing example was the rugby commentator Eddie Waring (of "up and under" fame) who always struggled with the /ʌ/ vowel.   D b f i r s   07:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I grew up in the Black Country and have always pronouonced it "mom" never "mum" - this is the standard Black Country pronounciation. (However, when referring to my mother-in-law, who was upset I didn't call her "mom", I now call her "mum" and it keeps her happy. A girl only has one mom, after all!) --TammyMoet (talk) 12:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Avunculicide
According to our article on avunculicide, the killing of one's uncle, "the term is derived from the Latin words avunculus meaning 'maternal uncle.'"

I need a word for someone killing his paternal uncle. Is avunculicide still appropriate, or if not what would be?

Thanks!

2001:558:6036:A:18C9:F7A9:4016:BA47 (talk) 06:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)GoTeamDanaerys!


 * Google Translate indicates that "maternal uncle" is avunculus and "paternal uncle" is patruus. I wouldn't necessarily bet the family jewels on it, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:09, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If considering from this Roman mother's brother and father's aunt had their words different from the roots mat(e)r- and pat(e)r- hence I can assume that they took special roles in family relationship of a Roman.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm ... the word "patruity" exists, though the OED marks it as both rare and obsolete, but "patrucide" seems never to have caught on, even though it's neater than "avunculicide". Perhaps it's just too similar to patricide.    D b f i r s   06:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Patruicide.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 07:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the correction, and apologies for missing out the "i".   D b f i r s   07:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The French have already asked this question.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The term would be patruicide. It is interesting to note that Anglo-Saxon had the terms Eam and Modrige for mother's brother and sister, and fædera and fathu for the father's brother and sister.  A niece or a nephew on either side is a nefa or a nift. μηδείς (talk) 15:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Russian translation
I've downloaded a file from a Russian site. It now shows me a screen with three buttons (closest English transliteration): OtkPblTb, OtkPblTb nanky, and Otmeha. What do they say, please? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I do believe they mean: Open; Open File; Cancel. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Open folder", to be precise.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Loss of "vosotros" in Latin America
Does the loss of "vosotros" in Latin America have any antecedents in Andalusian Spanish (like the loss of the /θ/ phoneme)? Conversely, is there any record of "vosotros" being used in vernacular New World Spanish at any point? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 18:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this is helpful, but our article Andalusian Spanish says in the lead:
 * Due to massive emigration from Andalusia to the Spanish colonies in the Americas and elsewhere, most American Spanish dialects share some fundamental characteristics with Western Andalusian Spanish, such as the use of ustedes instead of vosotros for the second person plural, and seseo. Many varieties of Spanish, such as Canarian Spanish, Caribbean Spanish and other Latin American Spanish dialects, including their standard dialects, are considered as being based on Andalusian Spanish.
 * Duoduoduo (talk) 20:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * For the second part of your question, our article Spanish dialects and varieties says this about "vosotros" in the Americas:
 * The only vestiges of vosotros in America are boso/bosonan in Papiamento and the use of vuestro/a in place of sus (de ustedes) as second person plural possessive in the Cusco region of Peru. In very formal contexts, however, the vosotros conjugation can still be found. An example is the Mexican national anthem, which contains such forms as apretad and empapad.
 * --William Thweatt TalkContribs 23:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that in parts of Central America, vos is used as an informal variant of tu (i.e. singular rather than plural, though it wouldn't shock me if it could also be plural). Whether that's a "vestige of vosotros" is arguable, I suppose, but it's at least related to it. --Trovatore (talk) 04:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, here's the article &mdash; voseo. Looks like it's South America rather than Central America. --Trovatore (talk) 04:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This may be tangential to the OP's questions, but I find it interesting...others might as well. Vos isn't a vestige of vosotros. If anything, Castillian vosotros is a vestige of vos (which is no longer used in Spain). This article discusses vos. It's rather long and in Spanish, but basically it says vos seems to have been a reverential 2nd person plural pronoun recorded as early as the 4th century that evolved into use as a respectful 2nd person singular by the 6th-7th centuries. By the 13th century, tú was in use as the 2nd person singular among those of similar status while vos had become a 2nd person singular familiar (or condescending). The corresponding plural usage was vos y otros, "you and others". Vos was taken to certain parts of the New World and then fell out of use in Spain but vos y otros coalesced into vosotros and remains in use there while all but completely lacking in everyday speech in the Americas. Also, in further answer to your second question, in doing further reading I have found that vosotros was indeed used by some in the New World in the past. For example, the early Mexican nun/poet Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz used vosotros and its verb conjugations in her works.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)