Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 10

= September 10 =

Jeg snakker ikke norsk godt
Vennligst sjekk denne redigeringen. Count Iblis (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Compounding is less modest in Norwegian than in English, so it is energieigentilstander, energiegenverdien, and so on. With your final sentence (Disse energi egenverdiene være avhengig av volumet, er partisjonsfunksjonen således en funksjon av temperaturen T og volumet V), I'm a bit unsure what you are trying to say. Is an English equivalent "Because these energy eigenvalues are independent of volume, the partition function is a function of temperature T and volume V"? Gabbe (talk) 06:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps "These energy eigenvalues are independent of volume, the partition function is thus a function of temperature T and volume V"? Gabbe (talk) 08:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The energy eigenvalues do depend on the volume, what I want to say is that the volume dependence of the partition function Z comes from the fact that the energy eigenvalues depend on the volume (the formula for Z contains an explicit "T" but you don't see a "V" in there, so people not familiar with the subject can ask "how can Z depend on V?"). Count Iblis (talk) 13:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

synonyms
I'm trying to find a synonym for severe corporal punishment. Are there any of them?142.255.103.121 (talk) 04:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The most obvious for "normal" corporal punishment would be "paddling". If it's severe, it's probably "abuse". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Flagellation is what I would go for, that or flogging. These are just synonyms though, attaching levels of severity to descriptors rather than actual types of punishment is just a matter of opinion. Here is a few synonyms, which one sounds the most severe to you Biggs Pliff (talk) 09:51, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe the OP could define "severe". Paddling used to be allowed in some schools (maybe still is), and some would regard that, or for that matter any corporal punishment, as severe and abusive. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Is that similar to "thrashing"?142.255.103.121 (talk) 18:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Thrashing" is one of countless synonyms for "a severe beating". Maybe you could define more specifically what you're looking for? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Caning" seems used most often in early-to-mid English 20th century writings. --jpgordon:==( o ) 00:45, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Latin motto
"Rum, sodomy and the lash" would be a good motto for any half-decent school, university, military establishment, political party, organised religion, or society of voluntary encyclopedia editors.

I wonder what the Latin version is. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They didn't do that sort of thing at my school. Playing football on pavement at 45 degrees F. was about as bad as it got. Latin doesn't seem to have a word for "rum", otherwise you could invent the saying. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Can anyone improve on Rhomium, peccatum Sodomiticum flagellumque? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:07, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * How about Aquavitae : Pedicatio : Flagellum? AlexTiefling (talk) 23:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, a bit. The ablative is better than the accusative.  FLAGELLATIONE, MELICRATO, ET BVLGARITATE .  I.e., "by (means of) flagellation, mead, and buggery". μηδείς (talk) 23:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Why did you change the order? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Solely because the rhythm sounded better to me. The bulgaritas and melicratum changes were somewhat arbitrary (as one is newer and one older) and I went with them for sound over rhomio and p.s. Same thing with et over -que, the rhythm sounded better. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * And "pedicatio", maybe? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, well, pedicatione is less likely to offend people of a certain nationality. μηδείς (talk) 01:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * PEDICATIONE, RHOMIO, ET FLAGELLO is shorter and has a nice trochaic meter to it as well. μηδείς (talk) 01:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Suddenly, paddling with a cricket bat sized board seems tame by comparison. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, just don't forget those commas, otherwise it's sodomy by means of rum and whip. Which sounds like fun, too. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:51, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You go first, Angr.
 * Thanks for the wording, Medeis. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My pleasure. My favorite jobs have all been as a copy writer.  μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

about "Müllers"
Dear Editors!

I noticed that in enwiki articles (and therefore in other Wikipedias as well) in some of the infoboxes of animals not the proper zoologist's name is shown.

For example in the article List of authors of names published under the ICZN.

Salomon Müller (1804–1864) is shown as "S. Müller", while Johannes Peter Müller (1801–1858) is simply "Müller". However, in many articles the "Müller" link points to "Salomon Müller".

I think that the link "Müller" should refer to "Salomon Müller". There are two examples for it: Exilisciurus; Celebes Dwarf Squirrel.

The following zoologists can be found in their list:


 * Müller – Johannes Peter Müller (1801–1858) mainly fish
 * O.F.Müller – Otto Friedrich Müller (1730–1784) insects, fauna of Scandinavia
 * P.L.S.Müller, Müller – Philipp Ludwig Statius Muller (1725–1776) birds, insects, some mammals and others
 * S.Müller – Salomon Müller (1804–1864) mainly fauna of Indonesia

DenesFeri (talk) 07:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I see that no one cares. DenesFeri (talk) 08:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You might get more of a response if you bring this up at WikiProject Science. -Elmer Clark (talk) 09:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Or just be bold and fix it yourself! --ColinFine (talk) 13:09, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks! But I wanted some opinions. But now I see that I must take in my own hands this matter. When someone makes an article, that person make sure that he/she do it right. No? Regards. DenesFeri (talk) 08:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Elmer Clark is right. This is the reference desk for questions relating to language. Your query is more science-related. — SMUconlaw (talk) 04:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Chinese character question
What are the Chinese characters in File:TeoChewTemple3Houston.JPG? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 08:20, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have 廟公?本 but what is the missing character? WhisperToMe (talk) 02:45, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like "頭" (Mandarin tóu; simplified form: "头"). — SMUconlaw (talk) 03:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 03:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

hospitalize
Is it true that this is originally an Americanism? And this might be too subjective but why is it unwanted? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 08:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is just a snippet from There's a Word for It - The Explosion of the American Language Since 1900, Sol Steinmetz's last book: "Among the words that made news early in the decade was the verb hospitalize ("to put in a hospital"). The word first appeared in print in 1901, though no doubt it had been widely used in common parlance for years. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) points out that the word was "frequently commented on as an unhappy formation," which accounts for its absence in the press before 1901. Opposition to this verb was in line with criticism of such verbs as finalize, deputize, jeopardize, theorize, and prioritize, which in the nineteenth century were condemned by critics as "pretentious and unnecessary jargon." . ---Sluzzelin talk  10:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The word is still frowned upon by some people here in the UK who would never use it, but it is gaining in acceptability. When I first heard "hospitalized", I thought it sounded as if it meant "made into a hospital" rather than "admitted to hospital".    D b f i r s   22:10, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the website Grammar and Style in British English: A Comprehensive Guide for Students, Writers and Academics" writes:
 * "Usage. Americans have a fondness for transforming nouns and adjectives into -ize-ending verbs and, while this practice often makes for a greater economy of words (hospitalized rather than taken to hospital), it should be borne in mind that the new words are often objected to in British English. Hospitalized, in fact, whether spelt thus or with -ise, is forbidden by both The Guardian and The Times, The Guardian also objecting to finalize. In time, of course, the new verbs often settle into the language. Few people now object to computerise, democratise, globalise, pedestrianise and prioritise, or to their new concomitant nouns (computerisation  etc.). But newcomers are almost always treated with derision. Burchfield cites the example of a woman whose unplanned pregnancy led her to regret that she had not had her partner condomized. In any event, the new verb should be avoided when there is a perfectly adequate one already in existence: burgle, not burglarise; pressure, not pressurise." "Appendix III: Word Wise", subsection "-ise- and -ize-ending verbs"
 * I couldn't find this mentioned in the style guides of The Guardian or The Times (which doesn't mean it can't be found). ---Sluzzelin talk  22:30, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The mention of burgle strikes me as borderline bizarre, as I've generally thought of that as a jocular back-formation from burglar. Isn't it from The Pirates of Penzance? --Trovatore (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know how jocular, but it does seem to be a back-formation from 1869, four years after the first appearance of "burglarize", according to etymonline. ---Sluzzelin talk  23:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That was my thought also: "When the enterprising burglar's not a burgling..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To "pressure" and to "pressurize" are not the same thing. And "taken to hospital" is an expression an American wouldn't use, as someone would say, "Since when did you become British?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:47, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, Bugs isn't objecting to the expression "taken to (the) hospital" per se, but only to the omission of the the. --Trovatore (talk) 23:03, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's rather like the difference between "go to school" and "go to the school". I assume that Americans make this distinction?    D b f i r s   12:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For once, I agree with American usage. The verbs "to pressure" and "to pressurise" now (since 1940) have different meanings in the UK, too.    D b f i r s   01:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I now did find something in The Guardian 's style guide: "hospitalised do not use; say someone was taken (never "rushed") to hospital" . (Idiotically, I googled for "hospitalized" instead of "hospitalised" + site:theguardian.com/styleguide).  ---Sluzzelin  talk  22:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would quibble over the meaning of "hospitalize". I think it only means "to admit to a hospital", not "to take to a hospital" (although Wiktionary uses both: To send to hospital; to admit (a person) to hospital). I claim that if I'm taken to the hospital's emergency room, treated there, and released without being admitted, no one would say that I was hospitalized. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Sino-Vietnamese place names
Is there a reliable place listing Sino-Vietnamese names for cities in Vietnam? Chinese characters were in official use until "recently" (not too differently from Korean) but most of our articles don't have them. Of the main Vietnamese cities only Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi and Đà Nẵng do. Even the corresponding Vietnamese page is strangely not helpful most of the times. --151.41.140.58 (talk) 08:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this will give you what you're looking for, but there are a few online Chữ nôm dictionaries. This one lets you input Vietnamese words in Quốc Ngữ and it will give you equivalent characters. Just to test it, I tried with Lào Cai. It didn't give any results for the words searched together, but it did give a character for Lào and for Cai when searched separately. I know it's not optimal, but may be a place to start. Good luck.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 21:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * How about Chinese and Japanese Wikipedia? Generally, Chinese Wikipedia articles for the Vietnamese cities have their Sino-Vietnamese names in the lede and Japanese Wikipedia articles have them in the infobox. Japanese list article for cities in Vietname have city names in Latin alphabet and Chinese character in addition to Japanese names. --Kusunose 02:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Chữ nôm innovated thousands of characters for commonly used native Vietnamese words. The Chinese language characters in the Chinese/Japanese wikipedias may not always coincide with the names as written in Vietnamese Chữ nôm, which is what I think the OP is asking for.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 03:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In Japan, Vietnamese place names are not commonly referred by Chinese characters but by katakana transliteration. Ho Chi Minh City article (ja:ホーチミン市) gives its Chinese character name as 城舗胡志明. 城舗 (Thành phố) is city in Vietnamese but not in Japanese (it is 市). The Chinese Wikipedia article (zh:胡志明市) also gives its Chinese name and Vietnamese name: "胡志明市（越南语：Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh／城舖胡志明）" (Chinese word for city is also 市), though their list article only lists Chinese names. --Kusunose 04:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Unlike in Korean, Chinese characters no longer serve any official capacity in Vietnamese, meaning that they are not taught as a required subject in school nor are they used by the mass media, even to disambiguate names. This means that some place names don't have "official" Chinese character equivalences if they're named recently.  For places with longer histories, the Sino-Vietnamese can be found in old Sinitic maps and atlases.  DHN (talk) 02:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Help with Yorkshire accent
Hi, is it just me or these people on this episode of Come Dine with Me don't have a very strong Yorkshire accent (except, perhaps, the girl in the red dress)? Sorry for asking the blooming obvious but, as you'll have gathered, a non-native speaker here. I'd really appreciate if you could help me. Thanks, --190.244.97.224 (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The video can't be viewed here in the UK, so you're not likely to get many native speakers answering this one, unfortunately. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 07:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen the episode, so I can't comment on the accents there except to say that pronunciations vary widely, even within Yorkshire. (In many British soaps, genuine regional accents stand out because of their rarity, with some of the actors making attempts to imitate the "local" pronunciation with varying success.)  In many British regions, the local accent is gradually dying out as people move around the country and younger people are increasingly exposed to "BBC English".  There is also a tendency, in "reality TV" programmes, for people to "talk proper" in front of the cameras.   D b f i r s   07:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Coincidentally, there was an article on the BBC news website yesterday about a study showing that UK regional accents can be affected by TV viewing. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, everyone. Sorry about the link – I didn't consider the possibility of YouTube not working. In case you're curious, though, the episode aired on 2 September. Cheers, --190.244.97.224 (talk) 04:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm in Germany, so I can watch it, but as an American I'm not very good at placing English-English accents. To my unpolished ear, the politician's wife sounds very nearly RP. Jemma's accent reminds me of Jane Horrocks as Bubble on AbFab or of the accents I've heard on Coronation Street, so maybe she's from Manchester/Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. The man sounds generically "Northern English" to me (he says [ˈʊvən] rather than [ˈʌvən] for oven), and the third woman I can't place at all. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * People in the UK can view it on 4oD. . Three of the contestants have vaguely RP/upper class accents with no regional component my wife or I could determine.  The fourth (Jemma) seems to come from the North West, not Yorkshire.--Phil Holmes (talk) 15:37, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A bit of Yorkshire is in the North West, of course, and more of it used to be!   D b f i r s   18:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot again. Have a beer or the drink of your preference on me. You rock! Relieved to find out I'm not completely accent-deaf *preens*. But boy, is that thing complicated! Especially when, as an ESL student, RP/BBC/whatever pronunciation is rammed down your throat. Cheers, --190.244.97.224 (talk) 22:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

On the west vs. in the west
Two of us, non-native speakers, have a small dispute here regarding the expression "towards the village on/in the west". A third opinion by native speakers, with an explanation when to use one or another preposition, would be appreciated. Thanks. No such user (talk) 19:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead, you could use "to the west of it". "In" the west just means some general "out yonder", while "on" the west is not really used that way. You could say "on the left" if you're looking at a map with north at the top, but you wouldn't say "on the west", you would say "to" the west. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bugs' answer is correct. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * However, it would be correct to use "on" instead of "in" for constructions such as "...towards the village on the west bank of the river", a difference which may not be obvious to non-native speakers.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Logically on is governing bank in that case--on the bank. On the (west) side, on the (west) coast. But to the west.  No one would be confused by "It lies on the west."  It's just not idiomatic, at least in American. μηδείς (talk) 01:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is another issue in the sentence cited: "The bridge is a border crossing itself, and there is an additional land crossing towards Serbia in close vicinity, towards the village of Neštin in the west." Native speakers would not use the construction "...towards Serbia in close vicinity".   British English speakers might write, for instance: "The bridge is a border crossing, and there is an additional land crossing nearby, towards the village of Neštin in the west."  The words "towards Serbia" seem redundant, if this refers to a crossing between Serbia and Croatia.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)