Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 21

= September 21 =

What language is this?
What language is this? Magog the Ogre (t • c) 18:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the reporter is speaking Norwegian, but I am not sure. I am guessing this based on the reporter's name, which sounds Norwegian. — Such a gentleman  18:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As a native speaker, I can confirm that the language is Norwegian – to be precise – Standard East Norwegian (which is the de facto standard pronunciation of Bokmål). --NorwegianBluetalk 21:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah. I thought it sounded Northern Germanic due to how gutteral it was, but I wasn't sure given that the people in the video looked to be much darker than your average Scandinavian. 02:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you should get out of the guttur. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The footage was taken in Xiangtan. The people in the video aren't Scandinavian. ---Sluzzelin talk  10:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Term for female chairman
Chairman notes alternative forms but doesn't expand on their usage. I noticed in a July 2006 edition of The New Yorker a full-page advert about her organization's policy change, by a Bonnie McElveen-Hunter, Chairman, American Red Cross. My question is about usage: among the alternatives chairman, chairwoman, chair, and chairperson, I'd think referring to a female officeholder as a chairman would never be correct, unless the publication's editorial policy adamantly rejects the alternatives as a kowtowing to "political correctness." Are there authoritative usage guidelines for this situation, which might be included on the term's page here, or are they still specific to house style guides? -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that is depends on the Editorial Style Guide the publication follows. For example, this style guide recommends the use of "chair". However, I would like others to chime in to see what their views are on this. Regards, — Such a gentleman  19:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See these search results.—Wavelength (talk) 20:03, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This address from the European Commission begins "Madam Chairman, Distinguished Guests and Friends...." In the UK, the use of "chair" instead of "chairman" seems to be confined to the liberal left; see Caroline Spelman and Sayeeda Warsi, Baroness Warsi who have recently held the post of Chairman of the Conservative Party, while Harriet Yeo is Chair of the Labour Party.
 * A Canadian lady called Margaret Treloar is World Board Chairman of the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, an organization almost entirely staffed by females. Alansplodge (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Meeting notices in my company, whether emanating locally or from abroad, typically say "chair", as shorthand for "chairperson" or whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In British science fiction fandom there's one prominent, rather large, female fan who, when she's chairing a convention refers to herself as "the sofa". I remember she was chairing Eastercon one year when the new season of Doctor Who started, so she claimed a seat in the front row of the main hall so that the rest of the convention could watch the Doctor literally from behind the sofa. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One Iowa SF convention had a divan instead of a chair; Reader, I married her! (33 years come June.) -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  03:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Etymologically, the "man" part of the word "chairman" has nothing to do with the human male. It's from a different root, the one that leads to words such as "manage" and "manipulate", which nobody sees as having a gender bias. So it's completely correct on that front, and not a slight on women. Accepting, however, that language evolves, often through ignorance, if organisations want to use a different word, how about avoiding "chair-thing" altogether and choosing another word? Maybe "president" would work. HiLo48 (talk) 01:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For a group meeting of, say, 25 attendees, "president" sounds a bit pretentious. Besides which, "president" usually applies to a permanent job title in a company. One is the "chair" only for a given meeting. "Leader" would work, if it were customary. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

HiLo is wrong, chairman has nothing to do with Latin manus of French main. The word derives from the Germanic cognate to the German Mensch which means human, rather than Mann which specifies males. In English those two German roots fell together as man. The concern for those poor women who are called chairmen is an exaple of Recentism. μηδείς (talk) 02:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's educational. It's certainly possible. The story I told was what came out as the "truth" in Australia when women first became sensitive about being chairmen. Unfortunately, neither of us gave a source. I wonder.... HiLo48 (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You may find EO's discussion interesting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:26, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Bugs. You know what's funny? That first link speaks of a chairman being someone "chosen to preside at meetings". "Preside" is presumably related to "president". BTW - the usage of president being "a permanent job title in a company" is a very American one. It's not the case in Australia and, I'm guessing, elsewhere. HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In British charities and other institutions, the title "president" is usually an honorary one bestowed for life, while the chairman actually does the job of presiding over meetings. Sometimes, a member of the Royal Family will be appointed president of a charity, while having no direct role in its running. Alansplodge (talk) 07:47, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Or, perhaps more often, the President is responsible for chairing the organisation as a whole - in a trade union context, for example, members' or delegates' general meetings - whereas a chair(person) is responsible for chairing the executive committee that actually carries out the work of running the organisation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Things could be worse. Imagine playing for one the women's South Carolina teams a few years back when they were called the "Lady Gamecocks". I guess they didn't find "Gamehens" very flattering. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * When I was watching a women's basketball game on TV I noticed that the female announcer, a former player, always referred to a "man-to-man defense" and "guarding her man". I would speculate that "man" started out meaning "male player" back when it was only a men's sport (I'm just guessing here), and the meaning of "man" evolved when it also became a women's sport. While "guarding her woman" seems pronounceable to me, "woman-to-woman defense" may have seemed just too long and so never caught on. Duoduoduo (talk) 22:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * And in other sports, Australian rules football in particular, players always ritualistically refer to their fellow players as "the boys"; never as "the men". Yet coaches and spectators often call for them to "Man up", never "Boy up".  It's all very confusing.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:45, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I find the confusion confusing. If we take the simplest assumption, that by "man" is meant "person", not male person (or the even less likely  intentionally insulting sexist usage for no good reason or context), wouldn't these terms like "man up" make sense?  Once again, stuff like this is only an issue if you begin with the dubious recent leftist premise that words like "history" are problematic, and try to fit the world backwards from the ignorant present into such crooked molds. μηδείς (talk) 02:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Uh...no, "man up" clearly means "be a man", meaning "have manly virtues such as bravery and strength", and not "be a person". --Bowlhover (talk) 00:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Would anyone have called  Her cules a sissy because of his name? HiLo48 (talk) 03:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's akin to the old "himmicane" joke. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)