Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 30

= September 30 =

reading articles in several languages
I, under languages, nothing comes up and I would like to read wikipedia in other languages besides English, especially Spanish. what do I have to do to get Spanish and other languages listed under languages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elaine wohl (talk • contribs) 04:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If a Spanish version exists of an article you want to read, on the English version of the article at the left as you scroll down you will see "Espanol". Clicking on that will take to to the spanish article. μηδείς (talk) 06:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Alternatively, at the bottom of the main page there is a section "Languages", which has links to the largest Wikipedias. If you pick 'español' from there, it will take you to the main page of the Spanish Wikipedia. --ColinFine (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Another way is to add es.wikipedia.org in the bar at the top of your browser. That will lead you to the Main Page of the Spanish Wikipedia :D Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

the lions are drinking
Hello there! I want to make a detailed description of this photo of two lions drinking water on this site. http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g471868-d677884-i57795941-Rhulani_Safari_Lodge-Madikwe_Game_Reserve_North_West_Province.html My sentence is, The lions, with their hind legs standing straight and front legs bending low, are lapping in/up water by the puddle. Is my sentence correct? Is it better to use lapping in or lapping up? Thank you so much. 203.228.255.210 (talk) 14:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would say The lions, with their hind legs straight and front legs bent, are lapping up water from the puddle. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Up" is definitely better than "In". I would reorder the sentence to give prominence to the fact that they are drinking, and not their posture:  "The lions are lapping up water from the puddle, with their hind legs straight and their front legs bent."  That being said, I don't like the word "puddle" in this context.  Bluap (talk) 14:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

That link has popup ads, so be careful. I'm going to run my malware checker now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tripadvisor is a fairly reputable website - it even has a Wikipedia entry. Bluap (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My malware checker found nothing. As regards the OP's questions, he's describing how the lions are posed, which should be obvious from the picture. "Lions drinking" should suffice. But grammatically speaking, Triple Duo's sentence works, but Bluap's is better. Maybe "waterhole" instead of "puddle". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the responses. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.228.255.210 (talk) 09:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the caption would depend on which article included the photo and which aspects of the image should be emphasised. To me, the important points are that both lions are male and they are drinking.  so "Two male lions drinking at a water-hole" is perhaps the most concise but informative.  But, if there was an article on Drinking behaviour, it would be appropriate to emphasise the lions' posture.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

A crow to pick
What does this expression mean?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  17:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You sure you don't mean "I have a bone to pick with you" ? StuRat (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The usual phrase is "a bone to pick". It means the speaker intends to give the listener an unpleasant criticism.  Boss: "I have a bone to pick.  You assembled all those chairs incorrectly.  We can't sell them and you are going to have to take them apart and reassemble them on your own time without pay."  It comes from the notion of removing the last bits of flesh from a bone the meat of which has already been eaten. μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Holy ship! :D Thank you.   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  18:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "'Bone to pick,' dates back to the 16th century, simply refers to a dog chewing endlessly on, and 'picking clean,' a large bone. A 'bone to pick' is thus a subject or issue that is expected to require considerable discussion or argument." Not sure how authoritative this is, but it agrees with my understanding of the phrase, although most people use it as meaning a few words of criticism. Alansplodge (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wiktionary also has "have a crow to pull" with the same meaning, although I have never heard of it before. Alansplodge (talk) 19:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Not quite an answer, but I find this. Bus stop (talk) 19:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the context: "He'd [my father] pull me aside and say, 'I've a crow to pick with you.' He always did have a crow to pick [...]."  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Where's that quote from, Miss Bono? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, see and .  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The quote is from U2 by U2. Sometimes Bono says strange expressions that I find hard to understand.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If someone simply has a minor criticism, they will launch into it without prelude. When you tell someone you have a bone to pick with them it means, "Listen, I am about to say something critical you may not want to hear."  It's a way to be politely rude. μηδείς (talk) 19:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I suspect that "I have a crow to pick with you" is intended to be a humorous blend of "I have a crow to pull with you" and "I have a bone to pick with you", the same way people sometimes say "Perish forbid!" as a humorous blend of "perish the thought" and "heaven forbid". Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Suspect no longer. It has a long history, and "Shakespeare" uses it.  See my 2 links above,  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sadly, I cannot follow the links.   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  20:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The first is from the Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE):
 * have a crow to pick v phr
 * crow to pick, have a v phr [Cf  have a bone to pick ]chiefly Sth, MidlCf See Map  chicken n C2a To have a disagreement or dispute to settle.[1896 DN 1.422 NC, AL, Pick a crow. ] 1905 DN 3.76 nwAR, Crow to pick. . . Explanation to ask, something to settle. ‘I have a crow to pick with you.’ 1927 AmSp2.361 WV,  We have a crow to pick over that affair. 1938 AmSp 14.267 swIN,  To ‘have a crow to pick’ with someone is to have something to talk over, usually an unfriendly act or a derogatory remark of the latter directed against the speaker. c1960 Wilson Coll. csKY . 1965–70 DARE (Qu. KK14, Something . . people disagree about: “I have a _____to pick with you.”) 303 Infs, chiefly Sth, Midl, Crow. 1967 DARE Tape AZ1, I have a crow to pick with you.


 * The second is from Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, via Bartleby.com:
 * Crow
 * I must pluck a crow with you; I have a crow to pick with you. I am displeased with you, and must call you to account. I have a small complaint to make against you. In Howell’s proverbs (1659) we find the following, “I have a goose to pluck with you,” used in the same sense; and Chaucer has the phrase “Pull a finch,” but means thereby to cheat or filch. Children of distinction among the Greeks and Romans had birds for their amusement, and in their boyish quarrels used to pluck or pull the feathers out of each other’s pets. Tyn’darus, in his Captives,alludes to this, but instances it with a lapwing. In hieroglyphics a crow symbolises contention, discord, strife
 * “If a crow help us in, sirrah, we’ll pluck a crow together.”—Shakespeare: Comedy of Errors, iii. 1.
 * “If not, resolve before we go, That you and I must pull a crow.”- Butler: Hudibras, part ii. 2. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The general term for these sorts of linguistic mistakes is called Catachresis. -- Jayron  32  20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do you call this a mistake? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * These phrases make sense, but I have never heard them. I wonder if others here have? μηδείς (talk) 00:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * On the subject, does anyone understand the example "The sustainers of a chair being referred to as 'legs'." in that article (Catachresis)? What does it mean that it is an example of "crossing categorical boundaries with words"? 86.160.211.131 (talk) 20:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds like somebody's original research. The term "legs" is used for anything that stands on those sorts of pins. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Surreal vs Unreal
I vaguely remember reading that the word "surreal" is being over-used and misused. Personally, I notice it being spoken on reality TV when a contestant describes a strange situation as "surreal". I hardly ever hear people use the term "unreal". (Not that reality show contestants are pinnacles of linguistic intellect) Is there any reason not to use "surreal"? Is it one of those old fogey linguistic rules that virtually no one ever obeys in modern everyday speech? --208.185.21.102 (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Unreal can refer to anything that is false or fake, whereas surreal refers to something that seems incongruous to reality, fantastic (i.e. of a fantasy) or uncanny.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If somebody says a word is being overused, they are expressing their own opinion. (Others may share this opinion, of course, but it remains an opinion). If somebody says a word is being misused they may or may not be relying on some authority, such as a dictionary, but they are still expressing somebody's opinion. No, there is no reason not to use "surreal", except that by your own account there is somebody somewhere who gets (used to get?) upset at it, and you may choose not to annoy them. --ColinFine (talk) 23:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, there are some good reasons not to use it in a way that makes it harder to use it in its strictest sense; that is, in reference to a particular artistic movement, the one that includes René Magritte and Salvador Dalí. "Surreal" is not supposed to mean "unreal", but "more real than reality" (however much sense you think that makes).  Or, of course, to the surreal numbers, but then you will have strong contextual cues that make confusion unlikely. --Trovatore (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Overuse" could mean two things, using it incorrectly, like "I could literally eat an entire horse right now" and using a word correctly, but too often, as in "I like cats because cats are soft, cats are warm, cats purr, and cats don't stink like dogs do". StuRat (talk) 05:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The word "surreal" is listed first at Lake Superior State University :: Banished Words List :: 2006 by Lake Superior State University.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It is absolutely surreal that we have to agonize over whether to use a word or not. Bus stop (talk) 01:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)