Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 April 13

= April 13 =

Japanese exonyms
As far as I know, the usual way to pronounce the name of Chinese and Korean cities in Japanese is to use the “On” reading of the Hanzi/Hanja (I’m also aware that nowadays a phonetical transcription of the original pronounciaton is sometimes used). For example: 南京 Nánjīng > なんきん Nankin 天津 Tiānjīn > てんしん Tenshin 広州 Guǎngzhōu > こうしゅう Kōshū 成都 Chéngdū > せいと Seito 保定 Bǎodìng > ほてい Hotei But there seem to be at least two notable exceptions I’m aware of: 上海 Shànghǎi > シャンハイ Shanhai 北京 Běijīng > ペキン Pekin Using the “On” reading Shànghǎi should be Jōkai or Shōkai, while Běijīng should be Hokukin, Hokukei or Hokukyō. Is there a reason for this? --151.41.151.164 (talk) 00:05, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Note that your two exceptions are the most commonly mentioned cities. It's easier to learn new pronunciations when you hear them a lot.  As for the motivation to change, probably the same as English abandoning Peking for Beijing and Loochoo for Ryukyu.  — kwami (talk) 02:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * But did they really change over time or were they always phonetical renditions?--151.41.151.164 (talk) 15:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Athens and Attica
Is the name "Attica" (Attikē) etymologically related to Athens and Athena, or is the similarity between the names of the city and its region coincidental? It doesn't seem like a regular derivation. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 23:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Dictionary.com says it is most likely from the same root as Athens/Athena but also notes a few possible alternate origins. -- Jayron  32  23:52, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the Childcraft books suggests that the word Attic comes from Athens, because in Athens people build triangular roofs. 140.254.226.201 (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Not exactly correct, but close. See here.  Attic (as in the space in the rafters of a house) does derive from Attica and Athens, but not for that exact reason.  The term for the storage space at the tops of houses comes (through a roundabout way) from the Attic base used on some ionic order columns.  Interestingly, in the original usage, "attic" applied to this upper space in flat roofed houses.  In triangular (sloped) roofed houses the term used was Garret, though over time that word fell out of use and the term "attic" was applied to all such spaces.  -- Jayron  32  14:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Importunate bohemians are still said to reside in freezing garrets (preferably Parisian) rather than in attics. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Chantraine's Dictionnaire has "Adjective in -ικός derives from Ἀθῆναι with a gemination of the dental. Remember that the feminine Ἀτθίς, ίδος, with expressive gemination, the derivatives Ἀτθικός or, without gemination, Ἀθικός, and finally Ἀττικός without aspiration, but with tau geminate." He cites his own Études Sur Le Vocabulaire Grec (1956), p. 109, but I don't have that. Frisk doesn't have anything.  If someone wants to do the small favour of buying me, I'll do the huge favour of repeating what it says. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:44, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I just thought a link to gemination might be helpful at this point. DuncanHill (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)