Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 April 17

= April 17 =

Ces gens dans le Nord
If you're a typical Montréal resident, what do you call the people up north? Are they still the Esquimaux, or have you done like the Anglophones and put them all under the Inuit banner? I can't read French at all, so I tried Google Translate for fr:Esquimaux#Perception, but I'm not completely sure that they're discussing official terminology in French. Nyttend (talk) 03:39, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The sentence Au Canada, l'appellation « Inuits » est officielle depuis 1970 et remplace le terme « Esquimaux ». Ce dernier pouvant être considéré comme péjoratif et offensant. means "In Canada, the term 'Inuits' has been official since 1970, and has replaced the term 'Eskimos', which could be considered pejorative and offensive." By the way dans le Nord kind of means "inside the North"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:49, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, so it means that it's been replaced in French as well? None of the Eskimo articles I checked in various Wikipedias discussed the terminology (as far as I could see), except for English and French, so I couldn't be sure.  Meanwhile, you see my inability to use French: "ces gens dans le Nord" was what Google gave me for "those folks up north", and I didn't know that it was wrong.  Nyttend (talk) 04:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Anon, but "dans le nord" simply means "in the North." --85.119.27.27 (talk) 06:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Literally translated, sure, but "du Nord" may be more appropriate. That's "of the North". Mingmingla (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * 85.119.27.2 -- That could be, but French dans generally has a much more concrete spatial meaning as a locative preposition than English "in" does (leaving aside the temporal function of dans, which is rather different). If you mechanically substitute dans in all cases as an attempted translation of "in", the result will sound pretty bad in French... AnonMoos (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So it's often closer to "of", in the sense of "William of Orange", combining a little locative and a little genitive with generally being associated with the object of the preposition? I always guessed that the établissements français dans l'Inde were simply "French establishments in India", and nothing more, from a strictly linguistic perspective.  Nyttend (talk) 05:37, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Most of the time, dans should not be used as a French translation for "in" unless "inside" or "within" would also make sense in the original English source sentence. I'm sure that there are further complexities and partial exceptions, but that's the basic rule of thumb... AnonMoos (talk) 13:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * That is the official term - in fact, French is one of the official languages of Nunavut, and they of course use "Inuit". (There is even some debate about whether "Inuit" can be turned into a French adjective - des gens inuits? La culture inuite? Or should it "Inuit" be invariable as a loanword from another language?) But that doesn't necessarily mean a typical Montreal resident would call them that - even in English some people still say Eskimo. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:40, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Inuit is commonly used in French-speaking Canada. Esquimaux sounds very old-fashioned nowadays; I bet some people under the age of 20 have only heard the term in relation to the CFL team in Edmonton. In France however, the term Inuit is still rare and used mainly by ethnologists. --Xuxl (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Not all northerners are Inuit, either. There are other indigenous groups as well, mainly Innu and Cree.OttawaAC (talk) 20:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Answering the original question, it would be "les gens du Nord", "les gens du Sud", or "les gens du Grand-Nord" (far northern Quebec). OttawaAC (talk) 02:04, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As a French, I would say "les peuples [autochtones] du Grand Nord canadien", and shorter, if your are Canadian, "les peuples du Nord", but may be in Canadian French gens is right — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The Public Works and Government Services Canada website has a guide to usage of Inuk, Inuit and Inuits in English and French. But no explanation of "inuit" with a lower case i. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 00:37, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * In French, Inuit with a capital I is the proper noun, with a lower case i is the adjective: Les Inuits, des chasseurs inuits. — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of the use in English. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 08:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

What is this Japanese language source about? Do the authors have a connection to the subject?I
I found these Japanese sources on CiNii:
 * 大森 幹子 (浪速短期大学) and 森 敏子 (西原幼稚園) "323 二つの文化の中の幼児教育 : 〔I〕 LICEO MEXICANO JAPONES BICULTURAL部の実践" (Archive). Japan Society of Research on Early Childhood Care and Education (日本保育学会大会研究論文集) (47), 650-651, 1994-05-01. - CiNii info page
 * 森 敏子 (西原幼稚園) and 大森 幹子 (浪速短期大学) "324 二つの文化の中の幼児教育 : 〔II〕 LICEO MEXICANO JAPONES BICULTURAL部の実践への対応" (Archive). Japan Society of Research on Early Childhood Care and Education (日本保育学会大会研究論文集) (47), 650-651, 1994-05-01. - CiNii info page

What is the article talking about, and do the authors have any connection with the school? Thank you, WhisperToMe (talk) 04:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * They are unrelated to the school. They visited Mexico and carried out reserch on early childhood education at the bicultural kindergarten. Oda Mari (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I found two more from the same authors: Does this document mention any additional information about the authors? What do these articles discuss? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 森 敏子 (西原幼稚園) and 大森 幹子 (浪速短期大学). "363 二つの文化の中の幼児教育 : 〔I〕LICEO MEXICANO JAPONES BICULTURAL部の実践から見た幼児教育" (Archive) 日本保育学会大会研究論文集 (48), 730-731, 1995-05-01. 日本保育学会. (CiNii info page)
 * 大森 幹子 (浪速短期大学) and 森 敏子 (西原幼稚園) "364 二つの文化の中の幼児教育 : 〔II〕LICEO MEXICANO JAPONES SECCION BICULUTURALの実践より : 教師への支援" (Archive) 日本保育学会大会研究論文集 (48), 732-733, 1995-05-01. 日本保育学会. (CiNii info page)
 * Unfortunately, it doesn't. I searched about them in ja, but I couldn't find any helpful information. The first article is about children there more specifically and the problems and the second one is about Japanese and Mexican teachers there and the problems. Oda Mari (talk) 16:48, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for the feedback! These sources should contribute to proof of notability for this subject, especially since the authors are independent of the school. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Taking care of living things
I had a discussion with a Chinese speaker of English, and he was talking about the role of course supervisors at Chinese universities. Because they have a range of functions, including dealing with accommodation in the university dormitories, they are more than mere "course supervisors". He said they "take care of living things" eg. accommodation, including disputes with roommates. Firstly, is there a good way in English to say "taking care of living things", or do I have to describe it by example? Secondly, is there a better term than course supervisor for someone with these extra roles? IBE (talk) 10:34, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I would probably say "taking care of domestic matters". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Are you perhaps describing a pastoral care role, in which someone takes care of pastoral, as well as academic, matters? 86.146.28.229 (talk) 14:39, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that sums it up rather well. Any further answers also welcome, but that I think is the de rigeur term in modern English. IBE (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As for the title of the person, in American universities these issues may be dealt with at an upper level by a dean of students, or at a lower level by various advisers and counselors, or by RAs. Lesgles (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe also a guidance counselor. -- Jayron  32  16:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Or possibly Community Director. Try Googling this: university community director job description; see if this fits what you mean.--Dreamahighway (talk) 18:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This sounds somewhat like a resident assistant or residence hall director to me. Nyttend (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Nyttend, the issue as posted seem to deal with on-campus housing (usually called residence) not spiritual counseling. Unless that is common in countries with state churches? μηδείς (talk) 04:52, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I think these answers give the basic overview. For all that, however, "course supervisor" is probably the best term, and "pastoral care" the best for their ancillary functions. It sounds similar to a counselor, but when translating a term from a foreign administrative system, we seem to either translate their term directly, or use our own more general and simple term. Note that Resident assistant is pretty close, but is usually a peer, according to the article. IBE (talk) 03:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "Pastoral care" has a strong religious connotation that to me sounds out of place. "Living arrangements" might convey what the student meant by "living things".  "Student counselor" is the translation I would suggest for this position.  The person counsels students on meeting their needs inside and outside the classroom.  Such a role is not entirely alien to the United States.  The undergraduate college (university) that I attended had peope with this role, I think focused on first-year students.  Marco polo (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this might be an WP:EngVar thing: in British English, "Pastoral Care" has no implications of anything religious or spiritual, and is simply the thing that teachers and people at universities provide that is not simply academic care (i.e., exactly the thing IBE is asking about). 86.146.28.229 (talk) 16:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia disagrees with you: Pastoral care - "It historically is the ministry of care and counseling provided by pastors, chaplains and other religious leaders to members of their church or congregation, or to anyone within institutional settings." Rmhermen (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. Pastoral care is historically what it says, but is now (fairly recently, I think) widely used in non-religious contexts in the UK. For example, we use it in the non-profit company I am part of to talk about the particular director who is tasked with looking after the well-being of our volunteers. --ColinFine (talk) 23:54, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to try and agree with you both, so to speak. I think the connotations are still there, but in some parts (such as Australia) "pastoral care" is being used in educational institutions. Since it is a recent usage, the colour of the religious assocation hasn't been completely washed out just yet. So I would go with pastoral care, although I rather like Marco polo's summary of "living arrangements". I prefer "supervisor" as a term, since it is more general, and "counsellor" sounds to me more specific. IBE (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2014 (UTC)