Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 August 10

= August 10 =

at every point
The following is taken from "Tales from Ovid":
 * "Each thing hostile
 * To every other thing: at every point
 * Hot fought cold, moist dry, soft hard, and the weightless
 * Resisted weight."

I am not sure whether "point" means moment or place. I need your help. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.223.234 (talk) 02:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd take it to mean "place", but since the word doesn't really correspond to anything in Ovid's Latin, I suppose you're free to read it either way. Hughes is translating "obstabatque aliis aliud, quia corpore in uno / frigida pugnabat calidis, umentia siccis / mollia cum duris, sine pondera habentia pondus", and his "at every point" takes the place of "corpore in uno"—literally "in one body"—so Ovid himself was probably thinking spatially rather than temporally. Deor (talk) 09:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

British English in the '40s
I've been watching Foyle's War which is set in Hastings, England during WWII. In the episode I just watched they used a few terms I'd appreciate some info on, please. Thanks! Dismas |(talk) 02:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) At one point a character uses the acronym TTFN which I believe even back then stood for "Ta Ta For Now". Is this anachronistic or did they use that term back then?
 * 2) A child calls one of the cops a "tack". Where did this come from?
 * 3) One of the characters is in debt for 30 "bob". Am I right in thinking this is a shilling?


 * We have an article on TTFN. No idea about 'tack'. 'Bob' was definitely a shilling (and had been for a long time - 1789 is cited here ), though there doesn't seem to be any agreement as to its origins. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:43, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thirty bob was a lot of money - a WWII British Army soldier was paid 2 shillings (10 new pence) a day or 14 shillings (70p) per week. Many received much less than this, as part of a married man's pay could be deducted at source and sent to his family. Alansplodge (talk) 12:13, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Two shillings a day? What were they complaining about - a shilling a day was blooming good pay, lucky to touch it, a shilling a day! DuncanHill (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thinking about it, are you sure it was 'tack' rather than 'tec'? 'Tec' is of course short for 'detective'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Should've figured we'd have an article on TTFN. (edit: I thought it had started with Winnie the Pooh. Guess I was wrong.)  And as far as 'tack' goes, that's what the subtitles said.  I wasn't sure I heard it right, so I rewound the episode and turned on the subtitles to check.  Dismas |(talk) 03:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * TTFN is about as 40's as it gets! (along with NORWICH, SWALK, and the like - a productive period for initialisms and acronyms in slang) Bob is a shilling, so 30 bob would be £1.50 in modern money (which was a lot of money in those days), but tack has me stumped. Subtitles are not entirely reliable, especially on vowels. Tec, for detective, would be appropriate for the era. DuncanHill (talk) 03:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Subtitles are frequently wrong/misheard, especially when applied retrospectively. I can only assume the subtitler doesn't have a copy of the script.--Shantavira|feed me 08:36, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * (ec) Subtitles are not always trustworthy, as they often depend on what the transcriber thinks they heard. See .  This is particularly a problem in live TV, but it sometimes affects pre-recorded programs with generally higher production values.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it may be a question of the transcriber being confused by the character's accent. On my copy of Se7en, "piss into a cup" is transcribed "piss into a cap", and on my copy of The Right Stuff, "pud-knocker" is transcribed as "pod-knocker".  "Tack" for "Tec" may be a similar case. Tevildo (talk) 11:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I watch "Dancing with the Stars" with the closed captioning on, in case the transcriber catches quick quips or people talking over each other better than I do. Once Katherine Jenkins said she was "chuffed" (a word not very commonly used in the United States) and there was a very long pause in the closed captioning, after which the word "TRUFFED" slowly appeared... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 06:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Yep, it's "tec" in the script . That is, if you're talking about s05e02 (and if that external site is accurate) since that's where both TTFN and 'bob' appear. El duderino (abides) 20:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * That is the episode in question, thanks. That is one very yellow site!  Thank you, everyone, for the answers.  I think we can chalk the Tack/Tec bit up to a bad transcription.  Thanks again, Dismas |(talk) 02:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Latin translation
Does this call the women a Empress dowager or a grand empress dowager? She was the main consort of the Yongli Emperor's father, so she wouldn't have been given the title Grand empress dowager, which is reserve for the grandmother or step grandmother of the emperor or a women in that generation.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC) Letter from the Grand Empress Dowager Helena Wang to the Pope, asking for help against the Manchu invaders. It is also written in the name of the Yongli Emperor's mother (Empress Dowager Maria Ma) and wife (Empress Consort Anna Wang), as well as his infant son, Crown Prince Constantine Zhu.

Interpretatio Literarum Sinicarum, ab Imperii Sinicum Imperatrice D. Helena, nomine suo, & Reginæ Matris D. Annæ, & Reginæ uxoris D.Mariæ, nec nom filii Imperatoris Principis & Hæredis D.Constantini missarum, AS SANCTISSIMUM D.N. Per Patres Andream Xavier, & Michaëlem Boym Societatis Jesu, n Aula Imperatoris Sinensis pro tempore Assistentes, facta. Is the translation in the file description correct? Can someone do better?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * My rudimentary Latin tells me the Latin text of the introduction literally says "...Empress Dowager Helena (Elena) of the Empire of China...Dowager Queen Mother(?) Anna...Princess-Wife Dowager Maria...Emperor Prince Heir ("Crown Prince" or "Heir to the Empire") Constantine..." I don't know if these styles have standard translations but I don't see anything in the introduction or the snippet of text below that could be translated as "Grand".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 06:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Your titles are correct but Helena is just "empress" - the "D" means "domina", just "lady". Adam Bishop (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Is there any version of the Chinese original?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The Latin text means "Translation of the Letter in Chinese, sent by the Empress of the Chinese Empire Lady Helena in her name and also in the name of the Queen mother Lady Anne, and the Queen consort Lady Mary, and the son of the Emperor, Prince and Heir Lord Constantine, to our most holy Lord (i.e. the unnamed pope), made by fathers Andreas Xavier and Michael Boym of the Society of Jesus, presently serving at the Imperial Chinese court." Note that the names Anne and Mary in the header are interchanged, for the letter itself names the Queen mother Lady Mary and the Queen consort Lady Anne. And so does the English description. Interestingly the answer by pope Alexander VII dated Rome, 18 December 1655 (Kircher p. 102f.) is addressed to the "Chinese Queen Helena Taminga". --Stuhlsasse (talk) 22:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

What was the real Chinese name of Helena? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Her surname was Wang but we don't know her personal name. Her formal title was Empress Dowager Xiaozheng (孝正太后).--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 18:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)