Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 December 22

= December 22 =

Proper punctuation for a possessive noun within parentheses
Consider the following sentence as an example: On the set of the film, one of the actors (Alan Alda) was responsible for the delay in production.  In the following similar sentence, what is the correct punctuation? The actor's (Alan Alda's) dressing room is on the left. ... or ... The actor's (Alan Alda) dressing room is on the left. Assume that I do not want to rewrite or reword the sentence. I'd like to know the proper punctuation for the sentence indicated. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I would go with the first option. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 01:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's ...the actor's (Alan Alda's)... with a parallel construction. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * ... so we all agree that the possessive apostrophe needs to be repeated.   D b f i r s   08:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * My bad, I misread first option to mean the totally apostropheless example. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If we count brackets as punctuation, "The actor Alan Alda's dressing room is on the left" would be better than either of them. Tevildo (talk) 12:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * True. But, I was not looking for a "better" sentence construction.  I wanted to know if the parenthetical also included (or excluded) the possessive apostrophe "s".  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:00, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Infamous
One headline on Facebook says that 'Mr. Evil' is an 'infamous' character on 'Saturday Night Live'. Now, as this is only broadcast in the US, how would we say a 'character who is completely unknown to the rest of the world'? KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 01:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Really, KT? First, where's the link?  And is this a request for a reference or an invitation to yet another anti-American debate?  And given facebook is an American website, what are you doing on it? μηδείς (talk) 02:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the character is infamous from the Austin Powers movies (which were released internationally)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Not at all, Medeis. I was merely referring to what would be the opposite of 'famous', which should be 'infamous', but the word is used to mean 'famous in a bad way'. I was wondering if there was a word for someone who is not famous at all. I have no idea who this character is. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 02:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The def for infamous includes "well-known", but not "known by everyone". &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss  &#9742;  02:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Words for someone who is not famous at all: obscure, unknown, unrenowned, unheard-of, etc. Extremely unusual words. Contact  Basemetal   here  03:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Is it "Mister" Evil or "Doctor" Evil? Also, did you ever see any of the "Austin Powers" movies? They are James Bond parodies. Bond is British, of course. And Mike Myers, who plays both Austin and Dr. Evil, is Canadian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry, I am a bit sore around the knees. The word you probably want is obscure, . μηδείς (talk) 03:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * And just to be clear, there is no Dr. or Mr. Evil from SNL, is there? I stopped watching it back when Phil Hartman departed. μηδείς (talk) 03:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You deserve points for hanging with it even that long. As it turns out, Mike Myers reprised his "Dr. Evil" role in a cameo on SNL. He's gained a few pounds since his "Austin Powers" days, and the writing has not improved. But there ya are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually haven't seen the Austin Powers films, and in fact I didn't know there was more than one (only inferred from Bugs' entry above). Anecdote alert: when I was in Japan, there was a fancy dress party, and my mate's girlfriend came dressed as Austin Powers (that's what she said). I just thought she was wearing normal clothes. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 11:40, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There have been several, but I lost interest after the second one. But watch the first one, if you're easily amused, and you'll see "Dr. Evil", who's basically a parody of Blofeld. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the first one is worth seeing, largely because of Elizabeth Hurley. The next two installments go from boring to a disgusting fat-suit character. μηδείς (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * 10-4 on the Hurley factor! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Getting back to the original question, calling something either "famous" or "infamous" depends on the audience knowing about the subject. FDR called December 7, 1941, "a date which will live in infamy." But it wouldn't be infamous to those who were unaware of it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

what demographic uses LMK for let me know?
hi,

what demographic uses the abbreviation LMK for "let me know"? Please google "demographic" if you would like to know what I mean by the term. Thank you. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 03:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Where did you see it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I am not going to say, so that you will answer my question, rather than be influenced by the context which is irrelevant to the general question - i.e. information about one specific example. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 04:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Baseball Bugs, *unspeakably rudely* had removed this question. Baseball Bugs, if you don't know and have no guesses or access to any corpora, let other people answer.  It's a perfectly meaningful question: do millennials use it, is it well-established businesss slang that is now not as in favor, etc.  It's like, if I had asked "what demographic uses IDK to mean I don't know" the answer is that it's quite a young one and that this was not an abbreviation in common use by older generations.  The reason I don't want to tell you where I saw it is that of course any particular usage can be done by anyone from an 8 year old to an 80 year old.  This does not change what demographic uses it most commonly, which is what I would like to learn.
 * If you've never heard it and can't do research like tihs then clearly you're not in a position to answer the question (unlike someone who had heard it before, fro ma certain age rage). I realize that you wuld like to venture a guess, based on the context of the speaker, but that really isn't my question, thank you.


 * There's nothing difficult about my quesiton. If I asked 'what demogrpahic uses the symbol xD instead of :-) for smiley' it would likewise have a fairly clear answer.  I'd like to know what it is.  212.96.61.236 (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * To get the ball started, here is a search I did but which was not very helpful: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=LMK%2C%22Let+me+know%22&year_start=1900&year_end=2041&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CLMK%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2C%22%20Let%20me%20know%20%22%3B%2Cc0  You have to click "search lots of books" after opening the link, because the link is broken. It wasn't helpful because likely the acronym LMK did not stand for "let me know know" in most of these search results, and I have no way of asking for results where it did stand for that.  212.96.61.236 (talk) 08:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Your original comment was, "I'm not going to say, so you will be forced to answer my question." That's trolling. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, yes. Because the question was "what demographic uses it", not, "what is the demographic of the speaker I heard it from", which is obviously what you were trying to figure out based on other information.  Of course a certain percentage of people over 60 will use the emoticon xD in email communication.  But that percentage is very very low and that is not the demographic that uses it.  I want to know what demographic uses the term LMK for "let me know".  Thanks.  And please assume good faith.   It's not trolling to ask the question I want, and not the question you want.  91.120.14.30 (talk) 14:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The original question was not trolling. Trying to "force" users to answer, IS trolling. And what you see as "obvious", ain't. I wanted to know where have you seen that abbreviation used in demographic studies? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Please assume good faith. It's a lighthearted way of saying that I would like my actual question answered and not a different one.  Why would it be trolling not to let you change my question into a different question?  I refused to change my question.  Now, you didn't ask about demographic studies - you asked where I saw the abbreviation (personally).  Obviously I have not seen any demographic studies that mentioned this abbreviation.  If I had I wouldn't need to ask.  Regardless of any studies - what demographic *actually* tends to use this?  91.120.14.30 (talk) 15:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You're the one who talked about "forcing", and I don't recall seeing any smiley faces. And I gather that by "demographic" you mean "regional group(s)" rather than data itself. So it still gets back to "Where have you seen it?" The most likely demographic is "texters", as they invent all sorts of abbreviations to save on keystrokes. But you must have seen it somewhere, unless you invented it from thin air. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Dude, how can you write 'and I don't recall seeing any smiley faces' after you linked my edit which is one sentence ending in a smiley face? You linked to this.  By demographic I was primarily interested in age range, income, education, etc.  Basically what kinds of people use it.  I don't know why this is hard to understand?  For example if I said, "what demographic uses words like 1337 on the Internet" the answer might be "Those born before 1995, especially 1970's and 1980's, mostly white male and interested in computers and LAN culture, etc." Simple answer.  What demographic uses the word "Rgds" in signing an email?  Here we have a good indication - over 30, likely over 35-50, business, senior management, it's extremely formal, highly educated, etc.  You can repeat this for terms that only teens in 2014 use, etc.  I'd like to know whwere the acronym LMK fits in.  I hope I've given you enough information.  Thank you. 212.96.61.236 (talk)


 * Is it business slang for example? Was it current in written correspondence in decades past?  etc.  91.120.14.30 (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * OP gives no evidence term is used, insists we find that evidence for him, close per BBB and Sunrise. μηδείς (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Medeis, I am warning you not to be disruptive here of a genuine question. Of course the term is used, see, e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22LMK+when+you%27ll+be%22  -- if you have no personal experience with anyone using this term, and no access to linguistic resources that can help you answer demographics questions (such as age and general social status or more specific demographics), and no ability to do research, then kindly refrain from answering the question.  If you believe there is no such thing as "a demographic that uses a term" then you're clearly incorrect.  For example, here are some slang words used by teens in 2014: http://www.buzzfeed.com/samstryker/words-teenagers-like-to-use-and-what-they-really-mean#.pvoYjNEzD   you can read the comments at hte bottom to see to what extend this list is true.  Please stop disrupting this thread, Medeis.  212.96.61.236 (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right, there was a smiley face there. Meanwhile, who are you to be "warning" other users? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

ps. Baseball Bugs has been extremely rude here, saying, for example "I don't recall seeing any smiley faces" after linking a light-hearted comment that literally ends in a smiley. This is not a riddle. I don't want to give you the specific context that I saw this in, because I don't want 1 context to influence your answer regarding what demographic uses it generally. (For example, if obviously a lady said what I quote, then you might say that it's a phrase women are likely to use; if an executive used it, then you might say it's current in business.) Presumably there is no particular split among gender and the people who use "LMK" for let me know are 50% male, 50% female. As far as other demographics questions - specifically, age, and social status etc, -- well, that is why I'm asking. Google ngram search is not particularly helpful for timing questions of the popularity of the term (unlike for a term like rgds) because I don't believe that the three-letter acronym LMK would necesarily stand for that without any other context. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If you had answered my good-faith question "Where have you seen this?", all this rancor could have been avoided. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't compel me to answer your question with the explicit effect of making the subsequent answers I receive poorer, since they are likely to be by people who know nothing about the subject matter except what they can deduce about the demographics of my 1 single datapoint. I understand that you wanted an answer, Baseball Bugs, but I don't want to answer the question about where I saw this.  I explained my reasoning very, very clearly: namely, I do not want to influence your answers,  I don't want you to guess based on my single datapoint.  Maybe I can draw an analogy.  If I asked you what the generational distribution for people called Margaret (by how common it is to be called this at different times), I would not tell you who I know named Margaret. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In short, you're jerking us around. Trolling. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No that's not trolling. The OP clearly explained why he didn't want to answer your question and his answer was perfectly reasonable. You do not seem to want to understand. Btw, since you obviously don't know the answer to the OP's question how did you get involved in all of this? Answering a question with another question like you did is not answering it. Reminds me of the joke: "Is it true you answer all questions with another question?" -- "Who said that?". Contact Basemetal   here  21:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, he is trolling. I simply asked where he had seen that usage, before he started attaching various conditions on who was "worthy" of answering his question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * after you deleted the thread after I didn't answer your question. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * And if he spent less time kvetching and more time researching, he might have answered his own question by now (whatever that question may be.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Baseball Bugs, drop it. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Shut your trap and get busy researching his question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * So, I dug around a bit, I didn't come up with much, but these are the best two: from . This  defines it - doesn't show much except, someone cared to define it, so it exists. These aren't really salient, but link it up to sms/twitter/IM speak, loosely, I include them only because they may be of some interest (not much, really, but still tangentially related):, , Internet slang, SMS language. Best luck on getting a better reply:-)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 05:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Translation help
I'm translating in Italian the article Petraeus scandal, in which the "social liaison" is repeatedly mentioned.

I can't understand the meaning of that expression. Thank you in advance. --Filippof (talk) 14:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Non-military volunteer who's supposed to help military personnel have opportunities to attend various social events in the communities surrounding a military base. Many people would think that it's a semi-silly thing... AnonMoos (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Very kind of you. Hi, --Filippof (talk) 15:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, there is a constant problem of military personnel having inappropriate social relations with the community. Take the US military presence on Okinawa, which is a continual cause of friction in US/Japan relations.  Often the only social interaction to occur is US personnel going into town, getting drunk, and causing serious trouble.  If a social liaison could steer the US personnel into more benign social interactions, like sports, that would certainly help to repair relations.  Failure to do so could ultimately result in US forces being asked to leave, which would have real impact on the military preparedness of both the US and Japan. StuRat (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Serving in Okinawa is probably a pretty boring gig. But the locals need to keep in mind that were it not for Pearl Harbor, those American soldiers wouldn't be there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Bugs, despite a 'surprise attack' two years into a global war, nobody deserves this. The girl in question was a child in primary school, 50 years after the war ended. The war had nothing to do with either her, or the three US Marines who kidnapped her. They just got drunk and decided to gang rape a child. I lived in Japan for ten years, then went to South Korea, which also has a strong US Army presence. I told my Korean friends about the behaviour of the American troops in Japan, and they were shocked. Do you know why they were shocked? It's because they thought it was only happening to them in South Korea. This means it's happening in both countries. It has become so common it does not even make international news anymore. Anyway, American soldiers are in both Japan and South Korea, because they are allies now, not enemies. So forget Pearl Harbour. And certainly don't confuse it with Girl Harbour. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 14:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is one of the most severe of many incidents there, most having to do with American troops getting drunk and causing major problems for the natives. I would set up a bar on the base, where they can get as drunk as they want, when off duty, but absolutely not let anyone leave the base when drunk.  They should have to pass a breathalizer test to leave.  If relations get really bad, you might go a step further, and not allow anyone off base unsupervised, and limit the those supervised activities to things like sports, where there is less opportunity to cause trouble.  An on-base brothel might also be in order, to prevent American service men from leaving the base to find somebody to screw, which is sure to cause problems, too.  Of course, prostitution being illegal in many places, this does present a bit of a legal challenge.  The only other alternative I see is some type of chemical castration, which might have a negative impact on recruitment and retention. StuRat (talk) 18:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As we all know, the Japanese War Cabinet was dominated by Okinawans. —Tamfang (talk) 01:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, how dare the Okinawans try to forget something that happened 70+ years ago and had nothing whatsoever to do with them? The nerve.146.235.130.20 (talk) 16:08, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Term for "the dole" ?
I mean a specific type, where recipients are given goods and service (food, clothing, health care, education, housing, public transportation vouchers, etc.), not cash. "Indirect assistance" is the best I can come up with. StuRat (talk) 15:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Voucher scheme? - X201 (talk) 16:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * in kind and outdoor relief are in the same semantic ballpark. jnestorius(talk) 22:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "In kind" works, but "outdoor relief" seems to include cash. StuRat (talk) 02:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * In the US, these terms vary from state to state and are subject to the euphemism cycle, so that things like foodstamps (a non-cash benefit) become the SNAP program and Medicaid becomes Family Care and good oldfashioned welfare becomes "cash assistance". There is no general official term; non-cash benefits is a suitable phrase, although it includes benefits paid to employed persons.  Non-cash subsidies also works.


 * "Non-cash public benefits" gives us quite a few Ghits, including this paper. Tevildo (talk) 12:08, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The original meaning of a dole was a handout of food to the needy by monastic or parochial institutions. This survives today at the Hospital of St Cross in Winchester, where you can still go and ask for the Wayfarers’ Dole from the doorkeeper, who gives you a chunk of bread and a cup of beer. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yea, because beer is just what the average homeless guy needs to improve his life. :-) StuRat (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Bread and beer were the staple food and drink of the Middle Ages in Northern Europe. Beer is nutritious and the alcohol is enough to kill any germs.  If you can get drunk off one cup of beer I envy you, Stu. Tradition. μηδείς (talk) 18:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not the Middle Ages any more, at least in Northern Europe. I'd expect some fruit and vegetables would be healthier for the homeless, and if they are disappointed they didn't get beer maybe they can get a job to pay for some themselves. StuRat (talk) 04:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Stu, you are way behind the curve. It's illegal to give food to the homeless out of a private church or charity because the goods haven't been federally inspected. Praise Be To Obama.μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Stu, getting a job in the current economic climate is incredibly difficult, especially if you are homeless. We don't have wagon trains rolling into town to pick up random workers to work on the railroad these days, you know. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 06:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

In this case, I believe that the original target audience for the Wayfarer's Dole was weary pilgrims rather than the indigent. It's not the middle ages, but it continues only because it's an ancient custom which symbolizes Christian charity, and it serves no other purpose. You probably have to be English to understand why we carry on doing pointless things for centuries, but it's the way we are. Alansplodge (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Why is St. John pronounced like "Sinjin"?
I see the "sin" part. I don't see the "jin". How come the "oh" in "John" has a short i sound? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Native intuition says: o (aw) -> u (uh) -> i ( [ u ]i ). Ian.thomson (talk) 17:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but it's from the French "Saint-Jean" and is more often pronounced /ˈsɪndʒən/ (not jin) in the UK -- just a shortening of the French when used as a middle name.   D b f i r s   17:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Previous ref-desk thread here. Deor (talk) 22:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Dunno, but I wanna say people are lazy in their pronunciations. StuRat (talk) 02:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)