Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 February 4

= February 4 =

Coca-cola commercial
Which languages are at which positions in this Superbowl ad? I think Spanish is at 6 seconds and French at 38 s, but I have no idea about the rest. Thanks. --Bowlhover (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Just taking a quick listen, I think it's:
 * 0-6 sec English
 * 6-10 sec Spanish
 * 11-15 sec ???
 * 16-21 sec (not exactly sure, but I think it's Chinese)
 * 22-32 sec English again
 * 33-38 sec Hindi
 * 38-42 sec French
 * 43-49 sec (not sure but sounds Semitic)
 * 50-end    English again
 * As an aside, I don't think this is the full version commercial. I saw it live; it seemed longer and I remember more languages.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 06:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, this article says "Languages featured in the Coca-Cola ad were English, Spanish, Tagalog, Hebrew, Hindi, Keres, and Senegalese-French" It doesn't give the order but I think you can figure it out now. Keres, btw, is a Pueblo (Native American) language).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 06:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Coca-Cola has issued a set of separate YouTube videos with the whole of the song rendered in various languages, so if you are interested enough you can try and identify the bits used from those videos. However, I have to say that the 16–21 seconds portion does not sound Chinese at all. — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Jack In The Box Plural
What is the plural of Jack In The Box? Is it Jack In The Boxes or Jacks In The Box? I suppose it would be Jacks In The Boxes, considering there would be multiple Jacks and therefore multiple boxes, unless they are all in the same one, which would be terrifying. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  09:31, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Merriam-Webster is of the opinion that it can be either jacks or boxes. Dismas |(talk) 09:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * (EC) The common spelling is Jack-in-the-box (with the hyphens) and [this] indicates either plural form is acceptable. Now I'm wondering what the possessive would be...and the possessive of the plural.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 09:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Heh. I created this article, but even I am bereft of ideas.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There is a fast food joint in the USA called Jack in the Box. In that case, I'd say e.g. "this town has two Jack in the Boxes", because the whole phrase is a proper name, and plural morphology on the last work carries to the whole phrase. For Jack-in-the-box_(toy) it's a little murkier. OED gives variants of all three of your forms.


 * 1) "Jack in Boxes, nor Decoyes, Puppets nor such poore things." (1627)
 * 2) "These women..toungs that lie worse than false clocks, By which they catch men like Jacks in a box." (1639)
 * 3) "Battles are won by resolute, enthusiastic men, not by jacks-in-boxes." (1899)
 * -- So, with OED as your backup, you can use almost whatever form you like :) However, all the non-OED Oxford dictionaries I've checked simply give "jack-in-the-boxes." Hope that helps, SemanticMantis (talk) 17:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * KageTora -- Dr. Seuss did a funny cartoon on this exact subject (no 12 in "Tardy Laurels for Forgotten Brows") around 1930; here's the text:  Kelp the Crusader: Never has the U.S. faced a worse crisis than in 1887, after the invention of the Jack-in-the-Box. It had become a fad overnight, and everyone was having a whale of a time when someone asked, "What is its plural?" "Jack-in-the-Boxes!" claimed some. Others hotly insisted, "Jacks-in-the-Box!" Civil war seemed inevitable, when Zeke Kelp's Crusade won a compromise on, "Jacks-in-the-Boxes." Unthanked for forty-three years, Kelp will be honored next week when N.Y. City unveils a hydrant in his name. -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Two Jacks can be in one box, but one Jack can't be in two boxes. (I also prefer "two Johns Smith" over "two John Smiths", but on somewhat different grounds: we occasionally say "Ronnies Corbett and Barker" but never "John and Bob Smiths".) —Tamfang (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * It's a damn shame the toy isn't called "Jack in a Box". The plural of that would be obvious: "Jacks in Boxes".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The OED also has info/quotes on "Jack in a Box" (as an alternate form/spelling), but my VPN is acting up so I can't check now. If you really want the info and can't get access, I can probably post it later. It's interesting, though, as I can't tell if the 1627 quote above comes from the "the" or "a" version... or if there are attested uses of "Jack in Box"? SemanticMantis (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * It would be the same issue with jack-o-lantern, will-o-the-wisp, whip-poor-will and such. Those are taken as single words, so the plural and/or possessive goes at the end. In contrast to a term like court-martial, whose plural is usually courts-martial. And the plural of something like brother-in-law is normally brothers-in-law... but the possessive is brother-in-law's. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * And the plural possessive is brothers-in-law's. There's also 1 o'clock, the plural of which is 'many o'clocks'.  :) (Well, it's no worse than the European couple in Casablanca who were congratulating each other on "how vell ze English ve are speaking".  The husband wanted to know the time, and asked "What watch?". The wife answered "Ten watch".  The husband retorted "Ay, such watch!". The husband was played by Cuddles Sakall.) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well that brings me to another question, which is not actually related to the reason I asked the original one. What would be the possessives of "Jack In The Box" (I refuse to use the hyphen)? Considering Jack doesn't actually own anything, except a box and clothes (he doesn't even own legs!), this is purely hypothetical.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  21:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Even stones "own" their attributes: a stone's size, shape, colour, age ..... So, one could ask "What is the Jack in the Box's colour?".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

salt bloom
What is the meaning of "salt bloom" in the sentence "Their bodies were covered with salt bloom when they came out of the sea."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.215.3 (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Googling the term, this was the first item that came up. It appears to be a colloquial term for a significant surface accumulation of salt. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Salty crusts (and also certain ices and frosts) are also sometimes called a rime, . SemanticMantis (talk) 18:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think you need to assume there's anything of a significant thickness here, which a rime would indicate. Just enough of a surface to be visible would count as a bloom.  Kind of like frost from a breath on a cold window, not a ring of ice around the hull of a boat floating in frozen water. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Are we talking about dead bodies ? That's the only way I can imagine them being encrusted with salt, as any significant movement would wash the encrusted salt off.  A body might have saltwater splash up on the dry parts, dry out, and deposit a layer of salt, repeatedly, until a thick layer forms. StuRat (talk) 17:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

a comma or a full stop?
Should a comma or a full stop be used in the following sentence? He shook his head(,or .)‘No,you can't do it.’ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.215.3 (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd go with: "No," he shook his head.  "You can't do it." μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, less clunky that way, but your wording has a slightly different meaning (order of actions) ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd say that the meaning could be different with different punctuation. With a period, it could be "he" speaking, or someone else speaking -- it's technically ambiguous. Without changing any word order (and assuming "he" is speaking), I think the best choice is Colon_(punctuation), i.e. "He shook his head: "No, you can't do it". SemanticMantis (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Upon reading my link more carefully, the quotation marks are technically unnecessary if a colon is used to introduce speech. SemanticMantis (talk)
 * I'd rather say the quotes are not necessarily necessary, depending on the context. If the sentence in question was from a novel, where most other speaking is rendered in quotes, then this one should be, too.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:02, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It sounds totally different. If you read the following sentence, what would you think I'm saying? He shook his head no. It sounds like he's shaking his head to indicate no, right? Well, if you also add a quote after it, it sounds like he's shaking his head while saying it.

He shook his head, "no you can't do that."

On the other hand, if you put a full stop, it sounds sequential. First he shakes his head. Then he says, "No you can't do that." (in this sentence of mine the verb is 'says' which obviously automatically implies a concurrent movement of the lips, whereas a verb like 'acknowledged' only implies it.)


 * To me a full stop is absolutely necessary here. In order to use a comma it would have to be: He shook his head, saying, "No, you can't do that."  Otherwise you have a run-on sentence. Looie496 (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * what I'm saying is that if you write He shook his head, "No, you can't do that." it is similar to writing He shook his head no. I would accept the latter sentence, wouldn't you?  i.e. it's an action verb: http://goasktheplatypus.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/for-writers-a-list-of-talking-verbs/ 212.96.61.236 (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Without context, and a very detailed description of what he was saying no or shaking his head no to, and of what he was saying couldn't be done, and why, it is really impossible to give alternatives other than guessing. Either original sentence would work as given in the first question.  It is up to the author to decide what subtlety of meaning he wants.


 * The only way for the writer to handle this is to pick one way to say it, and if you're not sure, underline it in the draft as needing a possible touch-up and come back to it the next day. Your subconscious will work on the question for you over night.


 * For the abstract issues behind how to deal with such questions I would strongly recommend Ayn Rand's two short manuals: The Art of Fiction and The Art of Nonfiction. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Finnish question
Hi, how would one ask "Where's yours?" in Finnish? The "you" is a close, female friend. The referent of "yours" is to a heart but if possible I'd prefer that heart not be specified (it will be evident from the context). I mean where in a literal sense, as in Where's your cup? or Where's your scarf? - the intent is not at all to imply that the interlocutor is heartless. Thanks 160.39.9.82 (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * We have an RD regular who is s native Finnish speaker, user:JIP. If nobody answers, you may want to contact him/her on their talk page.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The closest I can think of off-hand would be "Missä sinun on?" or "Missä on sinun?". Finnish doesn't have separate words for "mine", "yours" etc., the same words as for "my", "your", etc. are used. Because it's a close friend, I used the singular "you" "sinä". Unlike English, Finnish (and a whole load of other languages) has separate words for singular "you" and plural "you". The word order in Finnish is mostly free, so either of those sentences is correct. However, I think the first one, where the verb comes last, would be more frequently used. J I P  &#124; Talk 10:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * And since Finnish (like a whole load of languages, really) does not have grammatical gender, it is irrelevant whether the friend is female or otherwise, and the translation does not depend on a grammatical gender of the possessed thing (the heart). Disclaimer: I don't speak Finnish. --Theurgist (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * By the way, are there any IE languages where the second person pronoun has gender? (It is gendered in Semitic.) (Before someone helps me, I do know Finnish is not IE nor Semitic.) —Tamfang (talk) 03:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The article "Gender-specific and gender-neutral pronouns" (version as of 7 February 2014) makes no mention of that, though it says that the first-person pronouns of Tocharian A (Eastern Tocharian) are gendered. --Theurgist (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation request - Russian --> English
Hi, was wondering if an editor familiar with Russian could take a look at my recent edits to Nizhny Novgorod Planetarium. I based my changes on a machine translation, but I was getting confused because there were multiple names for the church that used to house the planetarium: Blagoveschensky monastery, Alexievskaya church building, Alexievslaya Church of the Annunciation Monastery, and so on. I also attempted to translate the captions and referenced articles' titles. If you feel like improving the article, please do! but I just want to make sure I didn't botch it up too badly. Here are my relevant edits. The Russian article is here Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The monastery was called the Blagoveschensky Monastery (ru:Благовещенский монастырь (Нижний Новгород)), and it would have contained many buildings such as dormitories, kitchens, cellars, etc. Blagoveshcheniya means the Annunciation, so "Annunciation Monastery" is the same name with the first word translated instead of transliterated.  The church at the monastery was named the Alexievskaya Church after Alexius, Metropolitan of Moscow, who is said to have re-founded it.  So there are really just two names: one for the entire monastery, and one for the church on the campus of the monastery.  --Amble (talk) 01:34, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for this. It really helps! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew "yi"
In modern Hebrew, is "yi", as in "ישראל", more commonly pronounced as [ji] or as [i]? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never heard "yi" pronounced as anything but [ji] in Hebrew. [i] is typical of some Yiddish dialects, not Hebrew. הסרפד  (call me Hasirpad) 02:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Qualified disagreement with the above response, though it will take me some time I can't spare at present. Watch this space. -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)