Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 January 4

= January 4 =

Pronunciation of "Sochi"
Forvo does not at this time have "Sochi" (Sochi) in its database. I am interested in knowing what pronunciations of "Sochi" other editors have heard used by people on English-language radio and television programs. Do they pronounce "o" in "Sochi" as "o" in "sock", or as "o" in "sort", or as "o" in "snow"? (I prefer to keep my geographical location confidential, as much as I can.) —Wavelength (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on the Russian spelling and the initial stress, the same vowels as costly or bossy (for those who don't merge caught and cot) would be a good approximation. But I have only heard this pronounced with a long o in English broadcasts, like okey dokey. μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I hear on the radio (southern Ontario, Canada) "SAW-chee". Bielle (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have not heard that, but it is better than the SOE-chee I have heard in English. μηδείς (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I hear here  with my bear ears /ˈsɔːtʃi/ and /ˈsɒtʃi/.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I suspect you mean your bare ears? μηδείς (talk) 02:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Like of a bear. :)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Like a bear? Seriously? (Not that I disbelieve you, it is just coincidentally funny in English.) Is that a standard idiom potwojemu? μηδείς (talk) 04:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, funniness has been intentional. :)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The Australian television network covering the Games is using a pronunciation that rhymes with "blotchy". I wouldn't put much faith in that pronunciation, but I know that Australians will now say it that way for the foreseeable future. HiLo48 (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The BBC in the UK use the same pronunciation as HiLo reports. See Sochi 2014: A look at Russia's Olympic city. The BBC take this sort of thing very seriously and have their own Pronunciation Unit, who presumably consult the numerous foreign journalists employed at the BBC World Service. Alansplodge (talk) 12:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As I have yet to watch a BBC football programme where commentators pronounce the name of a single german footballer correctly, I wouldn't put too much faith into the alleged expertise of their pronouncation unit. This procouncation file on commons (used by the Sotchi article in several languages) does support HiLo though. 86.146.84.160 (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Lüboslóv, I didn't see that you had posted some BBC links above. Alansplodge (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Did he pronounce more like "saw" in the first video (Jxy1aix1rEg)?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:54, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Alansplodge (talk) 23:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Does it mean "yes" or "no"?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the confusion. The speakers for my office computer have gone missing, and the other PC that I have access to has decided that it doesn't want to play any YouTube videos. I'm afraid that I can't confirm which pronunciation is used in the clips, I can only say that the BBC generally say "sotchy" to rhyme with "blotchy". Alansplodge (talk) 19:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's still ambiguous to us Americans. Do you Brits rhyme "blotchy" with cost /ɔ/ or with father /a/ ? μηδείς (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumably with neither, but rather with lot /ɒ/, a sound most Americans don't have. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:29, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Americans interpret that vowel as the same as the one in father. If the question here is, how is that word pronounced in an English approximation of the Russian, it will be /'sɔtʃi/ (SAW-chee).  I note the IPA given in our article is unreferenced. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's an NBC promo, in which the American voiceover guy says "SO-chee". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:39, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

lot of discussion about that "o" here, but what about the more glaring issue -- about half of the reporters (US at least) are pronouncing this "soshi" with an "-sh-"!! including several specifically discussing the pronunciation!

what am i missing? is russian "ch" actually closer to english "sh"? do they know something about french influence that i don't?

faced with a transliteration like "sochi", reporters with no knowledge of russian whatsoever are suddenly defaulting to "soshi" (be it soe-shi, suh-shi, or saw-shi). why on earth?! 209.172.25.250 (talk) 03:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Torquemada etymology
Is there any connection of Torquemada's name with the Spanish verbs torcer and quemar, "twist" and "burn"? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Turris cremata.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I see where you got that from.  Unfortunately, our Spanish article makes no reference to that etymology for the town's name.  Nor does the book in the Enlish article seem to give a reference, although that's from looking at the snippet.  Also, the Castilian for "tower" is torre, not tor.  Not that any connection with torcer (cognate with English "torture") is any more indicated.  I am wondering if there's an origin from Basque or elsewhere. μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Torrequemada.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:11, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, and thanks. The entourée de murailes description seems relevant.  The only thing that has me doubting is that again, tor =/= torre in Castilian, while quemada does match cremata.  Such partial matches usually indicate a folk etymology. μηδείς (talk) 04:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In Italian tower is torre too and it’s not unusual to have it turned into a tor in place names such as Torvaianica, Torviscosa and Tor Vergata.--151.41.189.191 (talk) 08:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Since the origin of his surname derives from the name of the town where he was born, the etymology of the town's name seems to be tangential. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 05:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What about its Latin name Turris cremata? Seems this was the first. Turris + anything seems quite a usual model of Latin toponymy.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumably you're researching that for the article, since it's not mentioned — proceed. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 05:28, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Your first source states that it is simply "burnt tower"; presumably the town was near a tower that had been burned (?) — I've noticed that at least one amateur etymologist attempts to attribute it to "Drunken Torturer" : ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 05:52, 4 January 2014 (UTC)