Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 July 1

= July 1 =

Question or not
Hi all, in the sentence: "I was wondering if you can meet tomorrow," do I use a question mark or a period at the end? Thanks,  Such a gentleman  14:16, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You would use a period, because the independent clause (the main clause) in the sentence is "I was wondering", which is a statement rather than a question. On the other hand, if you wrote "I was wondering, can you meet tomorrow?", you would end with a question mark, because the second clause is independent. Since your intent is really to ask a question, you could also write the following:  "I was wondering if you can meet tomorrow. Can you?" Marco polo (talk) 15:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, "if you can meet", by itself, is ambiguous. Meet with whom ?  The context might clarify this, but I'd prefer to say it explicitly, as "if we can meet tomorrow", "if you and Mr. X can meet tomorrow", "if the staff of Saint Periwinkle's Home for Wayward Hedgehogs can meet tomorrow", etc. StuRat (talk) 16:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Introducing an inappropriate apostrophe into the possessive pronoun its, to make it indistinguishable from the contraction it's (= it is; it has) is also adding ambiguity, Stu. You have long remained gloriously indifferent to anyone who points this out, yet you still feel it necessary to correct the grammar of others, and presumably expect them to take notice.  What's that syndrome called, and is there any cure for it?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * While we all make spelling mistakes and typos, Dunning-Kruger effect may be the syndrome you're looking for. To my knowledge there is no cure. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * That may well be the one. Thanks, SM.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:01, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * And is there a syndrome for being unable to let a personal preference like this go, years later, and move on with your life ? StuRat (talk) 21:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "Personal preference", eh? Hmm, I must remember that euphemism (for "Do as I say, not as I do") for whenever the Day of Reckoning comes.  Until then, enjoy your preferential life.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:29, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Muphry's law is one name for how comments pointing out grammar or spelling errors will often contain grammar or spelling errors themselves... AnonMoos (talk) 05:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I would add a full stop. You only have a period once a month.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  03:39, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * If you think any of the people above get their period once a month, I suggest confusion over punctuation isn't your main concern. IBE (talk) 08:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that only postmenopausal women edit the reference desks? Or that everyone on the internet is pregnant? 86.129.13.205 (talk) 09:34, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * In speaking, it's common for the questioning intent of the phrase to come through in the voice, even unintentionally, so it's become common for people to write it like that. But no, not proper English. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the name of the basic construction involved is "indirect question" (not much about this on Wikipedia, apparently). AnonMoos (talk) 05:27, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

What is this Arabic romanization style called?
I notice one way of saying "Baath Party" is "Baʿth Party" (the mark looks like a small "c"). What do you call this romanization of Arabic? WhisperToMe (talk) 15:19, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The correct transliteration is "Ba'ath", except that the apostrophe should be rendered as a right-facing semicircle. This is similar to but not quite the same as a lower-case 'c', and I can't get my keyboard to produce the character without downloading a different font. (Obviously I do not usually transliterate Arabic.) The character stands for the Arabic letter ayin, which is a consonant in Arabic, so that the word Ba'ath is actually two syllables.  It is used in several systems for the Romanization of Arabic, including DIN 31635 and ISO 233. Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The word is one syllable, at least according to Wehr. There is no vowel after the ayin. If we follow this, variations on "Baʿth" with one a are technically more accurate than those with two a’s (note I am not arguing that they are "better" for use in the article).--Cam (talk) 21:37, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a vowel before the ayin though. There's definitely two syllables in Wehr. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:14, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * But that vowel is the only vowel in the word. Wehr gives it as بعث baʿṯ, so it can't have two syllables unless a case ending is counted. --Theurgist (talk) 03:05, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm...you're right, on the pattern of other CVCC nouns. I was thinking there had to be another vowel implicitly associated with the ayin. (That's how I have to pronounce it, anyway :)) Adam Bishop (talk) 10:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

It is of note that there is another consonant in Arabic that is usually romanized with an apostrophe or an apostrophe-like symbol, or is ignored in romanization: the hamza (glottal stop). To keep the hamza and the ʿayn differentiated, one usually represents them, respectively, with an apostrophe '  and a grave accent  ` , or with a right  ’  and a left quotation mark  ‘  , or with a left-facing  ʾ  and a right-facing semicircle  ʿ  , or similar. --Theurgist (talk) 23:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Phoneticians, and some others who dislike writing what are full consonant sounds in the grammar of older and conservative Semitic languages with hard-to-distinguish and easy-to-overlook little apostrophe/single-quote/spiritus marks, use [ʔ] for glottal stop and [ʕ] for the voiced pharyngeal. "Baath" would be [baʕθ] in a basic IPA transcription of an MSA-style pronunciation (without case endings)... AnonMoos (talk) 05:31, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The non-usage of a full letter also causes capitalization to actually affect the second letter of a word. When we write the name of the Jordanian capital in English, whether we ignore the initial ʿayn or render it with an apostrophe or something similar, we regularly capitalize the "A". But in Arabic, that /a/ is no more word-initial than the first /a/'s in "Qatar" and "Bahrain" are. An even better example of that is the Hawaiian language and its ʻokina (titlecase: ʻOkina), where this applies to a language's officially codified Latin-based orthography, as opposed to one of many possible transcription systems based on someone's preferences. --Theurgist (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)