Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 March 1

= March 1 =

Chinese/English help: File:TNA332toShanghai.ogg
The audio in File:TNA332toShanghai.ogg goes so quickly that I cannot tell when the person switches from Chinese to English. What is she saying? Would someone mind posting the text in here? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 02:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * She never speaks Chinese in that audio. What she said is described in the caption: "Transasia 332? Transasia 332, contact Shanghai 133.35, over", except that the file cuts off after "one three three decimal".  --Bowlhover (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. So the audio stops after "Shanghai 133." right? WhisperToMe (talk) 01:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Do elders & children usually have different phonologies?
--96.40.43.34 (talk) 04:37, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It depends what you mean, but children don't language acquisition acquire all the phonemes and clusters of their native languge at once. My niece who just turned three leaves out /r/s in clusters, so she says "Iss boken" for "It's broken".  This is typical for all languages, and I have heard, but cannot remember where, that it's typical for children to take until the age of 12 to master the clusters and phonemes of the particularly complex Georgian language.


 * Even the language of the children once they reach adulthood tends to vary from that of the parents. My family is from Philly.  My father says "yuge" and "atteetude" instead of my "huge" and "attitude" (Freudian slip?)  My uncle called the football team the Iggles, while his children say the Eagles.  I say "sawsage" for meat casings while he says "sahsage".  If there were no variation like this there would be no language change (although the examples I give are not unconditioned sound changes).  Look also at all the changes involved in a child who says "Nigga be frontin" where his parent might say "The fellow is putting on airs." μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Linguistic Stereotypes
Why, in fantasy novels/films or even in sci-fi, do warrior culture races have languages that sound like Mongolian (and even have similar looking writing systems)? And elves and such have languages that sound like Latin with a British English RP accent? Is there something about the sounds of the languages that is intended to portray the nature of the people? In which case, is this true in real life? I doubt it, but I would like to ask our learned colleagues here. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  13:10, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It's very subjective, but Tolkien has said Sindarin was modelled after Welsh and Finnish. His Adûnaic, what little is attested, e.g., "Ar Pharazon", seems Turkic and Semitic, while his Dwarvish supposedly has triconsonantal roots and the black speech strikes me as a Turkic/Persian/Northwest Caucasian mixture. There are apparently two competing trends, the attempt to seem prestigious (or coarse), and the attempt to sound exotic.  μηδείς (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Obviously this will be coarse or exotic from the standpoint of the language of the reader of the main text. The Lord of the Rings in Mandarin or Arabic translation would have a very different feel. Tolkien addresses this in his Letters as well, giving advice on how not to translate some of the names into other European languages, and relating the funny experience of having the hosts at a Tolkien conference in the Netherlands offer him "Maggot Soup". μηδείς (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Medeis -- as I understand it, Sindarin was modelled on Welsh, while Quenya was modelled on Finnish and Latin, as far as phonology and phonotactics go... AnonMoos (talk) 01:08, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I won't argue that, since the consonant mutations (like those in Welsh) are obvious in Sindarin. (The Sindarin plural ablaut has nothing to do with either Welsh or Finnish.)  But I thought he worked backwards from Sindarin to Quenya, which he said stood in relation to it like Latin did to Welsh (i.e., indirectly, a là Italo-Celtic). -- User:Medeis


 * It's actually umlaut: assimilation to a lost final /i/. —Tamfang (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * in Sindarin, that is. —Tamfang (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * According to an old book I have here ("Learn Welsh for English Speakers"), Welsh does have singular-plural pairs such as corn-cyrn, esgob-esgyb, caseg-cesyg, bardd-beirdd, sant-saint etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I was wondering if that might be the case, AM, but our article on Welsh just says there are various endings. μηδείς (talk) 16:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Taking endings in the plural is presumably the more common noun pattern, but according to "Learn Welsh for English Speakers", there are not only the type of nouns listed above, but also vowel changes observable in feminine adjective forms (masculine tlws feminine tlos; masculine gwyn feminine gwen), and also in certain verbal forms (verbal noun torri third singular tyr; verbal noun datod third singular detyd) etc. AnonMoos (talk) 17:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Welsh has a variety of vowel alternations, both productive and unproductive. The ones forming plurals, feminine adjectives, and second- and third-person singular verb forms are unproductive, but Welsh does have productive alternations between /ʊ/ or /ɨ/ in final syllables and /ə/ in nonfinal syllables, e.g. cwm /kʊm/ 'valley', plural cymoedd /ˈkəmoɨð/; dyn /dɨn/ 'person', plural dynion /ˈdənjon/. (The /ɨ ~ ə/ alternation is so productive and predictable it's not even reflected in the spelling.) Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * KageTora -- Not 100% sure what you're asking, but there are vague popular stereotypes of harsh "guttural languages" (lots of closed syllables and consonant clusters and back-of-the-mouth consonants), supposedly spoken by grim people in cold climates vs. melodic "liquid languages" (with open syllables, no consonant clusters, and few back of mouth consonants), supposedly spoken by people with languid lifestyles on idyllic south sea islands. AnonMoos (talk) 01:08, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And there is a bitter irony in this stereotype as Wales and Finland are in the north, and winters in the latter are very harsh, plus all Finno-Ugric languages sound quite soft and smooth. While Arabs or Georgians with their "guttural" languages live in the sunny south.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "is this true in real life?" Yes, real elves absolutely talk like that. —Tamfang (talk) 09:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It's probably also worth noting that there are two main historical cultures seen (by westerners) as warrior races, the Vikings, and the Mongols under Gengis Khan (plus the samurai of Japan, but that tends to lean more towards heavy honour codes, and less towards invading others in popular culture). Frankly, would you be able to take a klingon seriously if he sounded like the Swedish Chef? MChesterMC (talk) 10:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Tolkien and others are exploiting the old West European (or British to be precise) popular idea about "good" North-West ("Us") and "bad" South-East, North-East or simply East ("Them"). As "the old enemies of the Western civilisation" like Huns, Mongols, Arabs, Turks, and even Germans and Russians (if we count from the British POV) have come from these latter directions. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Since you're asking about stereotypes in fiction, check TVtropes. Here's some relevant pages I found: "Evil Sounds Deep", "Everything sounds sexier in French" , and "Harsh Vocals" . Other related content here . Not the most academic resource, but tons of examples, and might be food for thought. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:03, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

French help: finding French language articles on the International School of Paris
I would like to have help finding French language articles on the International School of Paris. Is it called "International School of Paris" or "Ecole internationale de Paris" in French? I know the New York Times posted an article talking about the school. Surely the French newspapers have done this too? WhisperToMe (talk) 13:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The French Wikipedia article about the school uses the name "International School of Paris", untranslated. If that helps any.  -- Jayron  32  19:57, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing that out. I started that article. It is under the French version of AFD, so while I pointed out the New York Times article that is a source, I would like to see if there are more articles that talk about it. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:23, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not much luck, but I did find an interview with the former headteacher. Alansplodge (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And Visite à l’International School of Paris and a brief mention at - L'école et le retour en France. C'est tout. Alansplodge (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! That interview will be very helpful! I archived it at http://www.webcitation.org/6NlaVtkPk WhisperToMe (talk) 06:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Based on fr:Wikipédia:Notoriété:
 * "« Couverture significative et durable »
 * Une « couverture significative » signifie que des sources traitent le sujet directement en détail, de telle façon qu'on puisse en extraire le contenu de l'article sans qu'aucun travail inédit ne soit nécessaire. Une couverture significative, durable va au delà de simples mentions ; elle doit comprendre au minimum deux sources secondaires considérées comme fiables, dont l'objet principal est le sujet de l'article, et qui doivent être espacées d'au moins deux ans (sauf exceptions précisées dans le chapitre « La notoriété doit être pérenne »). "

Does this mean that the article sources have to be about the subject? (In the English Wikipedia a source proving notability does not have to be centrally about the subject - it only has to have significant information about the subject) WhisperToMe (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The French text means "must treat the subject directly and in details". It doesn't say the article must be solely about the subject. So, for example, an article about the American community in Paris that contains in-depth information about the school would be acceptable. If it mentions that there are some American schools, and talks in general about those schools, it would not be acceptable. That's my personal reading, though. --Xuxl (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * But it goes on to say that the sources must be centrally about the subject. "'Significant coverage' means that sources describe the topic directly and in detail, in such a way that the content of the article may be drawn from them without special effort. Lasting significant coverage goes beyond simple mentions; it must include at least two secondary sources that are considered reliable, whose main subject is the topic of the article, and which must be at least two years apart (except for the cases laid out in the section 'permanent notability'). Itsmejudith (talk) 06:43, 4 March 2014 (UTC)